October 19, 2017

Why Does Big Sis Need 1.8 Billion Rounds of Ammo?

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Last evening my wife and I were having a discussion. I brought up the subject that the Department of Homeland Security, ala, Janet Napolitano, aka, “Big Sis”, had placed another order for ammunition of an additional 21.6 million rounds, therefore bringing the total, by some estimates, to 1.8 billion rounds (B – illions)

“Holy cow!” my wife replied. (No really. Holy cow. She doesn’t cuss.) “That’s a lot of ammunition…….isn’t it?”

So I began thinking and then told her it sure seemed like a lot but I really needed something to compare that to. In the photo below, a caption I found with this picture suggested this might be 15,000 rounds of ammunition. Geez! That’s a lot!…………isn’t it?

ammo

I had a friend and reader send me an email with a link to a story written by Andrew Malcolm at Investors.com. He writes:

According to one estimate, just since last spring DHS has stockpiled more than 1.6 billion bullets, mainly .40 caliber and 9mm. That’s sufficient firepower to shoot every American about five times. Including illegal immigrants.

To provide some perspective, experts estimate that at the peak of the Iraq war American troops were firing around 5.5 million rounds per month. At that rate, DHS is armed now for a 24-year Iraq war.

As they would say in Maine, “Damn, Mistah!” That would be a lot of bullets.

Now that we can say that at least one person has provided us with a better perspective on how much 1.8 billion rounds of bullets are, do you suppose someone up there in Washington can inform the people what the hell they need them for? And while they’re at it how much that cost us taxpayers? It would end a whole lot of speculating and……..oh, wait! Speculating is good. It gets people riled up. I mean if they get scared and mad enough, no telling what they might do. They might even take to the streets, burning and looting and stuff.

I bet then we would find out what all them bullets are about.

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  • RattlerRider

    Sounds like there could be a lot of 9mm and 40 cal ammo laying around for the taking some day.

  • Well Tom for a government that is determined to ban guns and destroy our Second Amendment Rights, they sure are stocking up for a big-show-down. CB

  • TNUGA

    Tom, the rumor about DHS ammo purchases has been greatly exaggerated, mostly as a result of the rumor mongers at Infowars.

    It has now been confirmed that DHS purchased “only” 103 million rounds in FY 2012, and had about 244 million on hand as of April 2013. Total constructs awarded since January 2011 (about 3 years) totals rough;y 670 million, most of that on 5-year “up to” contracts.

    Even if they had purchased 1.6 billion rounds, that’s hardly enough to sustain a 24 year war. Records show that the Army by itself used over 1.2 billion rounds per year. in 2005, the entire US military used 1.79 Billion rounds according to GAO report D05687, Table 2, page 9. Look it up!

    • Idaho_Roper

      Yes……Just rumors!

      Nothing to see here…….which is why the house got involved…..just rumors.

      Sometimes exposure changes outcome. And denial doesn’t change facts.

      http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/05/house-votes-to-curb-dhs-stockpiles-ammo/

      • TNUGA

        This article proves nothing, and the toothless amendment by Mark Meadows only requires that DHS submit a report. Did you even bother to read the amendment?

        It massed the House, but I haven;t seen where that amendment made it through the Senate.

        Is that all the “proof you have? Ha!

        How many rounds do you think DHS has on hand?

        • Idaho_Roper

          Yes….denial is always a valid response. The point made is the fact of DHS intent on the 1.6 billion round purchase divided out amongst multiple departments. No mathematical equation out there could justify the need for that amount of ammunition under typical circumstances even if divided out over 5 years.

          The agenda behind it becomes speculation but the intent to tie up that level of ammunition is not.

          It could be the Bobama theory of necessarily skyrocketing prices to gain control. Or it could be their intent of a potential onslaught by our new gestapo. Who really knows, but the fact is, there is no valid need for them to purchase 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition over 5 years. And yes, that is the level they were trying to contractually obligate.

          • TNUGA

            Roper, i appreciate your input, and I have responded to Tom above. Also, please know that I am well aware of they list that was posted on Alt-Market, and I’ve used that data in my research. I believe I have some additional solicitations that are not included in that list. I’ll check my database.
            In the meantime, take a look at the response I gave to and let me know if you have any questions, OK?

          • Idaho_Roper

            To be honest, I do not consider infowars a very valid source and a lot of exaggeration comes from that site. Controlled opposition, nothing more.

            I don’t have any questions, I have looked at the information myself and considered the evidence without a prism. The fact remains they did attempt to contract that quantity of ammunition, whether they actually purchase it or not only seems to give more proof of trying to dry up the market as contractual quantities would have to be met before the free market would get supplied. Actual purchase level become somewhat contrary to the argument. The “up to” quantity would have to be considered by the contracted mfg. even if they eventually did not actually purchase that quantity. It seems like a perfect tactic by an anti-gun, anti-free market administration.

            Just as BO admitted to the need to drive up energy costs to control his energy policy, he knows well the formula and tactic to do the same thing with ammunition. One way to stop the run away gun market he himself created is to dry it up and drive costs through the roof.

            But neither would I downplay the possibility of nefarious intent on the part of the government against US citizens. Considering this very department has labeled a large percentage of US citizens as terrorists.

          • GoldDust

            JONES, RENSE, QUAYLE and others post a lot of fear mongering BS mixed with some legitimate history and evidence. Maybe high ups in the DHS knew the EPA hit was coming down the pike which has shutdown the lead smelter operation in the Mid West. I hear a lot of complaining from friends who can’t seem to find ammo.

          • Idaho_Roper

            to be honest, I can not stand to listen to Alex Jones. His the sky is falling ranting is usually nothing more than a distraction. There are many dangers in todays society and within our own government and listening to some guy scream OMG OMG all day wears me out. Especially when 90% of the claims are complete bullshit.

            They all seem to throw just enough truth into some things to keep them from falling into the completely unreliable label, but it is far to little for me to weed out.

            I have yet to hear any of these talking heads that aren’t in the bag for the bigger boss. And here is one perfect example.

            Julian Assange and Wikileaks. This guy released exposing documents through the media. He did not steal them, he simply released them through both the NY Times and The Guardian. and his website. He did nothing that either media outlet didn’t do. Yet, every politician, head of state and media talking head was calling for his arrest, or execution, every damn one of them from every point of view……yet not one made any accusations against the Guardian or the NYT. If he was culpable, so were they.

            They attacked him, villanized him and made the story about him as opposed to the crimes he exposed and every talking head played along 100%. Drummed up rape charges and a worldwide personal attack fell upon him for daring to expose the truth.

            He exposed war crimes and outright murder by US troops and their allies, and not one so called ‘watchdog’ even mentioned them. They are doing the same thing with Snowden…..kill the messenger and ignore the criminal. They are all in the bag, every damn one of them.

          • Chandie Bartell

            I agree! I don’t understand why everybody assumes if you are a Patriot, or even a Hunter you must be “labeled” as a Neo-Nazi that listens to Alex Jones, and are in the process no doubt of building your second under-ground bunker.

            I’ve had so many stereo-type labeling directed towards me until I started commenting on the internet about political issues and the threat to our Hunting, Fishing, and Trapping Rights.

            I don’t listen to Alex Jones for the same reasons.

          • Idaho_Roper

            One thing to add…….It is not only BO and his supporters, the ‘other side’ also makes the same claims against patriots. If you do not believe so……go listen to the republicans comments on the issue. This is a government against the people issue, not a (D) vs (R) issue.

          • GoldDust

            For a long time;

            {{{We are enemies of the State (Trading with the Enemy Act 1933 Act of 1917 & 1933) (People declared the Enemy) Oct. 6, 1917, under the Trading with the Enemy Act, Section 2 subdivision ( c ) Chapter 106 – Enemy defined “other than citizens of the United States…” March 9, 1933, Chapter 106, Section 5, subdivision (b) of the Trading with the Enemy Act of Oct. 6, 1917 (40 Stat. L. 411) amended as follows: “…any person within the United States.” See H.R. 1491 Public No. 1.}}}

          • TNUGA

            Roper, To save time and space, I’m responding here to your post above as well as to the earlier post with the list of solicitation from Alt-Market.

            First, regarding the list of solicitations, this list was written by James Smith and appeared on Activist Post and Prepper Podcast on August 25, 2012, almost 2 weeks after Infowars posted the erroneous “750 million” article.

            Mr Smith did a much better job of research than most people. However, I would like to first point out that Tom’s article appears to be in response to reports early last year that DHS had bought these last quantities in the past year or so. The list you link to adds up to 1.88 billion rounds, but it covers a period of almost 8 years..

            In addition, Mr Smith’s list has some mistakes in it and the net effect is that actual solicitations on his list total 1.493 Billion for that time period and, at the most, just under 1.4 Billion of that was contracted.

            However, let’s look at the time period covered by the article by info wars and others, the 12 months prior to February 7, 2013 when info wars posted the erroneous “21.6 million” article. In fact, we’ll go about a year earlier and look at solicitations posted after January 1, 2011.

            For that time period, i see solicitations totaling 711 million rounds. I do not count solicitation Number: HSCEMS-11-Q-00002 (for 375 million) which was actually posted on 5/17/11 because it wasn’t a solicitation at all. It was a Presolicitation, which is simply testing the waters to see if somebody wanted to bid. Response was sufficient to warrant the issuing of an actual solicitation, # HSCEMS-11-R-00004, on 7/12/11 for 450 million rounds of the same ammo. (This will become more significant in the paragraphs below)

            Of the 711 million rounds solicited during this time, 615 million were awarded contracts. Subsequent to the publishing of Mr Smith’s list, DHS has solicited and contracted for several additional amounts that bring the total up to about 670 million rounds contracted since January 2011. This is a long way from the 1.6 to 2 billion reported in various articles.

            Another thing to consider is the contracting process and how it affects what actually gets purchased. The majority of the rounds purchased by DHS are on Indefinite Delivery/indefinite qty contracts for 5-year periods. For example, the solicitation and contract for 450 million rouds of 40 cal 180 grain JHP on HSCEMS-11-R-00004, allows DHS to buy up to 90 million rounds per year at the price agreed to in the contract.

            The “Instructions to Offerers” for that solicitation states:

            “MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM THRESHOLDS:

            Each contract for .40 S&W caliber (180gr) JHP ammunition awarded under this solicitation will have a base period of one year, plus four one-year options, and a maximum threshold throughout the 5-year duration of the contract, of 450,000,000 rounds. The guaranteed minimum is 10,000 rounds of ammunition for the base period only.”

            So, on the contract with Federal, DHS is obligated to buy only10,000 rounds of the 450 million that the contract allows them to buy. You can find this statement in paragraph 8 of the “Instructions to offerers” document at the link below.

            https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=62153059219cc9324d6d6d5c0b6ac56e&tab=documents&tabmode=list

            By the way, when this contract went into effect, it thereby superseded the previous contract on solicitation # HSCESS-08-Q00003 for 375 million, and reduced the numbers purchased on that solicitation by 75 to 100 million rounds, since the options were not renewed.

            As another example, the contract for 200 million rounds of 40 cal 135 grain was cut short along with another contract for 155 grain 40 cal. You were very observant to notice the significant of the light load and Border patrol apparently changed their procedures and went back to 180 grain.

            IMPORTANT POINT:
            Now, let me point out something that really surprised me, and shoots a big hole in your logic above. When DHS awarded the contract for 450 million of 180 grain 40 cal, they did not renew the options for the contract for 375 million of 180 grain 40 cal and the 200 million of 155 grain.

            These two contracts allowed them to buy 115 million rounds per year of 40 cal. The contract for 450 million “only” allows them to buy up to 90 million rounds of 40 cal, a significant REDUCTION in the amount of 40 cal that had to be supplied by Federal.

            So, to recap, DHS actually reduced their “open-to-buy” amounts for 40 cal with the 2012 contract. That coincides with the reductions in ammo purchases we’ve seen. They purchased 148 million rounds in FY2010 and 103 million in FY2012.

            Finally, let me address your comment that Obama was trying to “dry up” the ammo supply. While I don’t put anything past Obama, the reduction mentioned above discounts that likelihood; they simply could not buy as much with the new contracts.

            Most of all, the amount actually purchased by DHS is not enough to affect the supply of ammo to consumers. Domestic ammo producers manufactured roughly 10 Billion rounds of small caliber ammo in 2012. DHS purchased about 1% of that. Other government, law enforcement and military purchases are roughly 1.8 billion, which leaves about 8 Billion rounds that are purchased by gun owners. I’ve researched this thoroughly, including data from annual reports of Olin and ATK. In 2012, about 80% of the ammo was purchased by us gun owners.

            After the tyrant was re-elected and after Sandy Hook, ammo sales exploded and far surpassed the ability of ammo makers to fill demand. Winchester’s backorders for non-governemnt accounts went from $138 million to $495 million on 90 days during 1Q 2013. (Their total shipments in 2012 were $600 million)

            I’ve seen hard data that indicates that actual sales of ammo to gun owners increased by at least 35%, probably up to 50%. in 2013.

            So when a market segment that purchases 1% of the ammo decreases purchases slightly, and the segment that purchases 80% of a product increases by at least a third, who’s actually causing the shortage? You are certainly free to your opinion on this, but the facts I’ve seen do not support the contention that DHS has dried up the supply.

            Make no mistake; I’m not saying that obama isn’t the cause, because he is the cause of the shortage by his repeated calls for more useless gun laws. We respond to these by buying all the guns and ammo we can.

            That’s the essence of what i’m saying here:

            -DHS did not buy 1.6 billion rounds in a year
            -DHS purchases have insignificant effect on the supply and did not cause our shortages.

            In the past 12 months, I’ve gone from agreeing with what you’re saying above, to a different opinion that I have stated. I’ve seen no evidence that disagrees with my position, only inaccurate data, and opinions. By the way, other than the list you provided, every article I’ve read on this can be traced back to statements by Infowars, and the list is dated after Infowars started spouting false numbers.

            Now, if you have information that can refute what i’m saying here, please let me know. For now, I stand behind what I’m saying, but I will give new information an honest examination.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Thanks for your reply. While I agree infowars got this wrong, the evidence still points to hugely increased ammunition purchases under this administration. I am still having a hard time understanding why this nation needs an internal standing army. I am a researcher if history and know well the dangers of these standing armies and I don’t like it one damn bit.

            I know well the explosion in the private market, but one also has to consider the impacts upon and already stressed market when uncle sam steps to the front of the line and ties up supplies like this. Even that 1% becomes a burden.

            Has anyone asked the question……why are they buying ammunition on the open market when they own their own damn ammunition plant? Is Lake City incapable of keeping up, and if so why are they not expanding it? It is not like they couldn’t unload excess production on the open market. But once again…..we are back to agendas.

            This entire situation has a bad stench about it.

            And one more question…..if they are using this quantity of ammunition…..what is being done with the brass? I know they do not reload it and it is far more valuable intact than it is being scraped. Are they selling it as reloadable brass or scrap? Or stockpiling? Not direct questions to you, just thinking through bandwidth…

          • TNUGA

            Roper: BTWy, I’ve wanted to ask if your moniker indicates that you are a ‘goat-roper.” My undergraduate degree was in Beef Cattle Production, and I’ve spent some time in Texas around some goat-ropers. Not much of a horseman myself, but I like the cattle industry.

            Let me see if I can address your comments here:
            “…, the evidence still points to hugely increased ammunition purchases under this administration.”

            I’m sorry, but from the evidence I’ve seen including the list you provided, that is not supported by the facts, other than an upward blip in 2012. Since then, purchases have decreased.

            Take another look at the point I made above regarding the 375 M and 200M solicitations. Look at the dates on your list. These were initiated before BHO took office, and they were replaced with one lower-qty contract in 2012. BTW, I doubt BHO or Big Sis had any idea of that they were buying. He’s shown that he isn’t a detail person, and Big Sis didn’t know what was going on, either.

            I’m sure that total purchases by all the DHS agencies has increased since DHS was set up in 2003, but it appears that most recent years have been around 100-120 million per year. Under Bush, Border patrol agents doubled from 10,000 to about 20,000. They use a lot of ammo in training, especially new recruits.

            Bottom line, you are free to your opinions, but the evidence (including what you’ve shown so far) does NOT point to hugely increased ammo purchases by DHS under this administration (unless you buy the garbage written by Alex Jones and his minions). It DOES point to hugely increased purchases by gun owners.

            “I am still having a hard time understanding why this nation needs an internal standing army.”

            I think that we can agree on this. However, I’m not really convinced that the 72,00 armed agents of DHS qualifies as a “standing army.” While i also question the need for DHS as an agency, I do feel we need armed law enforcement agents on many of these areas.

            I think we need to guard our borders and those agents should be armed. Furthermore, the administration needs to get out of the way and let them DO THEIR JOB. That might involve firing a few more shots than they’ve been firing. JMO!

            When i fly, I wouldn’t mind if there was an armed Federal Air Marshal on every flight. Cost prevents that, so I can accept that we have undercover armed air marshals on some of the flights, but I’m glad they’re armed with more than a box cutter and instructions on negotiating with a highjacker.

            As for a “standing army” I don’t see a need for that. Much of our military is stationed here and we have a pretty good supply of local state and Federal Law enforcement.

            “I know well the explosion in the private market, but one also has to consider the impacts upon and already stressed market when uncle sam steps to the front of the line and ties up supplies like this. Even that 1% becomes a burden.”

            I’m sorry, but that’s a weak argument and makes no logical sense to me. You need to give me more information if you want me to buy that. It sounds to me that you still don’t believe DHS bought only 103 million rondos in 2012. BTW, the bought 44 million rounds in the first 6 months of FY 2013, a rate lower than 2012.

            “….why are they buying ammunition on the open market when they own their own damn ammunition plant? Is Lake City incapable of keeping up, and if so why are they not expanding it?”

            I’m sure there are several reasons, but DHS and the DOD are two different agencies. First, the plant was modernized in 2009 and has the capacity to produce 1.4 billion rounds. It’s set up to produce FMJ military rounds and most LEOs use a lot of JHP. Also, even the DOD buys some of Its ammo from manufacturer like ATK/Federal and Olin/Winchester, especially the advanced weapons systems and rockets made by ATK.

            The real issue, again, is the huge increase in demand by consumers, not DHS. All the major and minor ammo makers have been expanding their capacity and are running many lines 24/7. Ammo manufacturing is a capital-intensive industry and expanding production involves planning, big bucks, and (don’t forget) getting permits from EPA, OSHA, and probably even the local PTA.

            “…if they are using this quantity of ammunition…..what is being done with the brass? I know they do not reload it and it is far more valuable intact than it is being scraped.”

            I don’t know what is done with the DHS casings. I know someone who might know and I can make a phone call to find out. My handgun carry instructor has a close friend who is a combat instructor for DHS.

            In 2009, the DOD suspended the sale of spent military casing for a short time, and that suspension was reversed although the Infowars idiots still post about the suspension. The suspension a was reversed in March 2009.

            http://proliberty.com/observer/20090311.htm

            Hope this helps. You’re asking good questions, some of the same ones I’ve had.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Give me a break……..dismissing these actions by claiming they didn’t know what was going on is ridiculous. It is not that BO doesn’t know what is going on or his lack of attention to detail….it is the fact that the man is a pathological liar. No narcissist in that type of position doesn’t “have a clue” as to what is going on. One loses validity when they try to peddle that big of a fish story.

            I know well about the suspension of the brass sales in 2009, and I also know it was another act of congress that stopped it. And it those very type of actions that consistently cause distrust.

            If one really believes a standing army that consist of what is equivalent to 3 divisions is not a threat, one is very ignorant of history. They have never proven to be a benefit to freedom, ever. If you believe that three divisions are not an army, I suggest you study some of our past wars and the amount of destruction that sized force can do. Or more recently, Boston. That example of armed implementation of martial law and armed door to door invasions should have been a real eye opener to any person concerned with freedom. And do not try and excuse it away with some lame ‘safety’ argument. That show of force and the speed and level of implementation was to most and should be to all a very big concern. It had nothing to do with safety. IMO that fore became more of a threat to the public safety that either of the two lunatics that prompted it.

            I have to wonder, you seem very quick to defend the government and it’s excuses. The fact that you attempt to dismiss the Lake City plant as a viable supplier to the government that owns it makes me suspect. Trying to dismiss that it is set up for a different bullet reeks of more diversion or at least a lack of real knowledge. The change of projectiles with in a loading facility is an extremely simple procedure/ Changing from FMJ to JHP is not a valid position to stand on. The interesting thing is, I have thousands of rounds of LC 5.56 ammunition, some of it is stamped as late as 2009. Why is the left hand dumping surplus ammunition on the market when the right hand claims to need it? Or are they? I have not seen any LC ammo dated later than 09, which raises the question, where is it at? Considering LC was producing and releasing surplus ammunition even during the height of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and that war is winding down, why did supplies simply dry up. It is not like I just missed them, no one has even seen them.

            One other comment makes me suspect…..Your timeline is off. Any true gun enthusiast knows this issue began long before his ‘reelection’ or Sandy Hook. While I agree the reelection threw it into another gear and hit the NOX, the supply was already depressed. I shoot in a lot of competitions and have for a long time and this issue began right at the inception of the BO reign. Yet 20% is still a factor in the market supply. I know people at ATK that wish to hell they could boost production 20%. They also tell me that government purchases always come first and that they buy at much lower prices, which also has a negative financial implications than if they could sell to a higher margin customer.

            Personally, I love this ammunition shortage, and I very much hope the demand continues so that suppliers can expand to meet it. The more private gun owners and the more private ammunition out there the better as far as I am concerned.

            I will have to look closer at some of these solicitations, and look back at some from the inception of DHS. One would expect munition needs would be much higher in the creation stage than in the maintenance stage of a department not actively engaged in maneuvers. Since you have seemingly researched this issue very thoroughly, you probably know this already…..have ammunition purchase levels dropped off in 08 to 13 compared to 02-07 time period, or increased? The actual fluctuations within these two separate time periods is less telling than the actual differences between them as a whole, IMO.

          • TNUGA

            Roper: Overall, a good response, but I’d like to avoid the tertiary issues (which we actually agree on) and focus on the key points of your response and our discusstion here:

            “Yet 20% is still a factor in the market supply.”

            Yes, I would agree that 20% is a significant factor. The central issue of this thread is purchases made by Homeland Security. In fact, I thought I clearly stated that I believe DHS bought about 1% of the ammo made in the US in 2012, and that their purchases have been going down since 2010. If you add in military and other law enforcement agencies, the government probably does use 20% but I’ve seen no indication that they are increasing in purchases. The scuttlebutt has been that DHS has made “huge increases” in their purchases. I’m focusing on the accuracy of that particular rumor.

            “I will have to look closer at some of these solicitations, and look back at some from the inception of DHS. One would expect munition needs would be much higher in the creation stage than in the maintenance stage of a department not actively engaged in maneuvers.”

            Read my comment to Tom last night. All 7 of the DHS agencies that use ammo have been around for a while, way before 2003. They didn’t just start using ammo in 2003, but they have grown since 2003. CBP agent number increased from 10k to 20k. I’ve seen comments from retired BP agents from the 90’s regarding their ammo usage back then.

            “Since you have seemingly researched this issue very thoroughly, you probably know this already…..have ammunition purchase levels dropped off in 08 to 13 compared to 02-07 time period, or increased?”

            I believe current ammo usage is probably 1.5 to 2 times what these folks used back in say, late 90’s early 2000. I can find no numbers of actual purchase prior to 2010 (at least numbers that i consider reasonably reliable) so I have to base my thought here on the solicitations in my database. That includes the solicitations in the link you provided as well as others I’ve found, especially those posted after that list (about 45-50 million rounds.)

            I would say that their ammo purchases peaked in 2010 shortly after a lot of agents were added in 2008-09. Training new agents burns a lot of ammo.

            SUMMARY:

            Tom’s original comment is based on articles early last year that stated that DHS had bought and stockpiled (acquired and in inventory) 1.6 to 2 billion rounds of ammo in the preceding year. (read my comment to him above) All the other items are tertiary arguments to this issue as far as I’m concerned. I’ll summarized this into the two views below:

            1. There are apparently some who believe that, between about 5/12 and 2/13, DHS suddenly ordered and stockpiled 1.6 Billion to 2 billion rounds of small caliber ammo. They believe this to be a huge increase from previous ammo purchases (50M, 100M, 200 M per year? who knows). If DHS did suddenly flood the ammo makers with these orders, and acquire all that ammo, I would agree that it would create a significant shortage of ammo. In fact, this time last year, i was of that opinion myself.

            2. I’m now of the opinion that DHS bought about 103 million rounds in FY2012 and their purchase have been going down since 2010. This is about 1% of the ammo production. If that is true, then DHS purchases would not cause a shortage. I am also now of the opinion that the shortage was due to panic buying by all of us gun owners in response to the re-election of BHO and his numerous calls for new gun laws. That opinion is based on information gleaned from various sources including the annual reports of Olin/Winchester, ATK/Federal, and Cabela’s.

            Key points:

            -Winchester’s government shipments (Law enforcement and military) have been flat. Their total shipments have increased significantly but it’s due to increases in the Commercail sector.

            -Winchester’s Commercial shipments increased $40 million over 2012 in 1Q 2013. Commercial backorders went from $138M to $495 M just in 1Q 2013. Compare this to total ammo shipments (including government) of $600M in all of 2012. Essentially, they got 3 times as many commercial orders as they could fill despite increasing their production.

            -Cabelas reported gun and ammo sales increases of 38%.

            -FAET taxes on guns and ammo to consumers rose 48% over 2012.

            So, the question is whether or not a person believes #1 or #2 above. You’re free to believe #1 if you wish, but, I see no evidence that supports that view. As you can probably tell, my research over the past 11 months has me satisfied that DHS purchases about 100 million per year

            Yes i’ encourage you to dig deeply into the solicitations and the links I’ve posted. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else questioning or challenging anything I post. I believe it to be accurate, but I’ll examine anything you think would show me to be wrong. If I am wrong, i’ll own it.

            Meanwhile, I suggest you review the information on the link below. It’s posted on the site for Rep Jason Chaffetz, R-UT, who was involved in the Congressional investigation of the issue along with Sen Tom Coburn. Sen Coburn has posted similar info on his site.

            https://chaffetz.house.gov/sites/chaffetz.house.gov/files/Procurement%20Procedures.pdf

            Let me know if you have any questions. i’ll be glad to tell you what i know and anything i post as fact (not opinion) I’m prepared to back up. OK?

          • TRemington

            “All 7 of the DHS agencies that use ammo have been around for a while, way before 2003”

            And so do you have data on “all 7 of the DHS agencies that use ammo” prior to the formation of DHS to know what real increases in ammo purchases have taken place since Bush illegally created DHS?

            None of the rest of these numbers mean all that much to me, because it’s an illegal agency that is doing illegal things and the last place I am going to look for truthful information is from any government agent (senator or congressman, BATFE, etc.)

          • TNUGA

            Tom: I addressed some on your questions in my response to you last night. Have you given that a thorough reading?

            I’ve tried to answer your questions as honestly as I can, and I’ll do that as long as you ask. However, it’s time to turn some questions back to you.

            Since you’re the one who posted the articles about DHS buying and “stockpiling” 1.6 or 1.8 Billion rounds, maybe it’s time that you provide some proof that DHS did in fact purchase that amount. That’s the only issue I’m questioning here, and you ave provided no substantive proof. The information that I’ve seen confirms the 103 million number, at least to my satisfaction. You’re free to believe whatever you want to.

            I no longer trust the sources that you have provided above due to lack of substance and the Infowars connections.
            You made the statement in your article, so maybe you should try proving that statement without referencing a government document of any kind. Try proving it without any root references to statements from infowars. I’ll give whatever you post an honest examination.

            How do you propose to prove that statement? Or, is it possible that the number was greatly exaggerated?

          • TRemington

            I’m sorry TNUGA but you just don’t get it. Much of your actions ape those of a troll. Do you know what a troll is?

            You are bent on controlling and manipulating a discussion that I have little interest in following. You refuse to answer others questions and insist you will only focus on what is the accurate number of bullets ordered and stored. That’s fine with me. I don’t care.

            A troll insists on drawing attention away from the real topic at hand in order to avoid truth. Your number may or may not be accurate. I don’t care! Repeating the same message over and over and over is an act of trolling….although the quality of your words doesn’t necessarily match that of the typical troll.

            You are also a poor reader I think because you are making assertions of things “I” said. The information I provided in this one particular article, while yes I did type it, is information coming from other sources. In case you didn’t get it, I asked questions then and made comments based on SOMEBODY ELSES information but all your focus can be on is the number of bullets, blah, blah, blah. Trolling (it takes all forms)

            And then you demand that I prove your data wrong and then demand that I substantiate information I did NOT create. But that isn’t good enough for you.

            You can, if you wish, make every attempt to control and drive a conversation in any direction you want. Do not place demands on me to help you fulfill an agenda.

            The last time I checked, I paid the bills for this website, therefore I decide what I will write or not, to whom I will respond to or not and where I will spend my time depending on my own interests and time allotments.

            Do you understand that?

            Bully for you that you are heavily attracted to crunching numbers in order to prove that someone might have published something you don’t agree with. It’s kind of anal retentive and unfortunately such a person sometimes missing more important issues. For me there are far more important things than the finer details of what DHS or any other fascist arm of this corporate-fascist country and Marxist/Communist government are doing. You are welcome to get mired in your trivial pursuits, that’s fine. I don’t think you are in any position to be telling me what to do for you. I wouldn’t do that to you nor anyone else.

            You came here for what purpose I am not sure yet. Immediately you began attacking my character and questioning my work and intent. You insist YOU are going to control the direction of the conversation and so go for it. If you get any takers, well then, good for you.

            I will end this conversation today with a question. Since coming to this website, how many other articles have you read? Or is your ONLY motive to wage an attack on anyone speaking against DHS and their actions?

            I will not respond to any more questions or comments about this subject because it is dead for now and not one I am interested in pursuing.

            Thank you for your interest, you just aren’t going to get mine. Perhaps others.

          • GoldDust

            Distraction to what end?

            If the ammo existed where is it?

            Or is the non existent ammo tied up in red tape?

            Fear mongering?

            Cover story for an orchestrated ammo shortage?

            We both know these ammo factories could over load the store shelves easily if they so chose to do so.

            I see less shooting going on. More friends wanting ammo they cannot find. I see rationing of ammo.

            We know why.

          • TNUGA

            “If the ammo existed where is it?”
            I believe the ammo is in the closets of all of us gun owners. i have personal friends who have stockpiled 30,000 to 50,000 rounds over the past 2 years. i’ve seen that. In my opinion, DHS has about 250 million rounds on hand. All of us gun owners have 8 to 16 billion rounds in our safes and closets.

            “We both know these ammo factories could over load the store shelves easily if they so chose to do so.”

            You may think you know that, but I disagree. Idaho Roper says his friends at ATK wish they could increase production by 20%. Why can’t they? Did you read my comments to him regarding the annual reports of Winchester and the like? Their shipments to commercial accounts are up, but they cannot keep up with demand. Backorders increased from $38 m to $495 million in one year.

          • GoldDust

            “This was a five-year strategic sourcing contract for up to one-point-whatever billion rounds,” —Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano when asked by Rep. Jeff Duncan, R-S.C

            She said the widely reported purchase of 1.6 billion rounds – enough for many years of a war at the rate ammunition is used by the U.S. military these days – was right. At least she thought so.

            Federal purchase document Looks like 450,000 rounds.

            http://www.naturalnews.com/files/DHS_ammo_buy.pdf

            When it comes to this ammo, guillotines, or what Janet Napolitano had for breakfast this morning I don’t know what to believe.

            And honestly I don’t care. I know who and what they are, who they serve, and what they’re building up for. And it isn’t anything any of us want.

          • TNUGA

            Yeah, i saw her make that statement. Just a good indication to me that she didn’t have the numbers and had not really looked into it. “Whatever” is a throwaway.

            The solicitation that you linked to was indeed a 5-year solicitation that was contracted and is in force. It’s for one year with a It allows DHS to purchase up to 90 million rounds per year of 40 cal.

            That contract actually reduced the amount of 40 cal that DHS could buy. it replaced two separate contracts for 375 M and 200 M (115 million per year) that were already in place for different loads of 40 cal.

            If you look at the list of solicitations that Idaho_Roper posted, you will see solicitations in 208 for 375 and 200 million.
            http://www.alt-market.com/articles/1003-the-history-of-dhs-ammunition-purchases

            The resulting contracts were for 1-year with 4 1-year options. when the 450 million solicitation was awarded a contract, the options for the two other contracts were not exercised. As a result, their annual open-to-buy for 40 cal ammo went from 155 M per year down to 90 million rounds per year. They rarely utilize all of the rounds the contract allows for.

          • TNUGA

            “You refuse to answer others questions ”
            What questions did I fail to answer? I occasionally don’t respond to some questions if I don;t really have an answer, but I thought I addressed the major ones.

            “You are also a poor reader I think because you are making assertions of things “I” said.”
            You said:

            “therefore bringing the total, by SOME estimates, to 1.8 billion rounds (B – ill ions)”

            I understood that perfectly. You posted that and some links. In my opinion, you’re endorsing that number since you gave no indication of doubt.

            I’ll leave you with this link to an article by Frank Miniter that was also published in Forbes.

            http://www.frankminiter.com/2013/10/20/why-there-is-an-ammo-shortage/

            From your interest in the outdoors, perhaps you will appreciate the research he did in talking to the ammo makers on this issue. BTW, as an animal science major, timberland owner and hunter, I’ve enjoyed some of your other articles such as the one on keystone predators. Too bad we got off on the wrong foot. My apologies.

            To answer your question of that I’ve read in the last few days besides our discussion, I looked at my history and see that I read articles on Corn Production, Beef Cattle, Feedlots, Property sales transactions in my state, The Use of Chorpohphram (bud nip) on plants, Music articles (Wille Nelson and Bo Diddley), Ancestry, the Global Warming farce, and the Creation-Evolution debate.

            I’ve also been working on my company’s website, making home repairs and following up with some customers. Last Saturday I harvested a 10-point buck on my timberland.

            Regards!
            TNUGA

          • TNUGA

            Tom: Without making any reference to ANY government entity, such as FBO, the only other thing I can think of to substantiate what I’m saying is information I’ve obtained from the annual reports of companies involved in ammo sales. I alluded to this above, but i’ll try to pull together some links for you later today.

            Other than that, I don’t see how anyone can prove anything about this without referencing the solicitations on the FBO site. Those on;y go back through 2004, as far as i can tell.

          • Idaho_Roper

            So in summary, in spite of your attempts to try and claim otherwise……DHS is a internal standing army that was greatly expanded in 2008-2009 with the Obama Regime. And therefore ammunition purchase increases necessarily followed.

            I am not one to try and ignore the truth behind this expansion, nor do I place it plainly on Obama. Bush was just as culpable in this illegal action, yet the fact that Obama has exponentially expanded it screams warnings that every American citizen should be concerned about. We simply do not need nor should we have an Internal standing federal army who’s basic mandate seems to focus on American citizens they see as a threat to their global agenda.

            DHS is a damn joke and especially their airline security farce, we are running on luck by design. As another ‘disaster’ will only be used as an ‘excuse’ under the guise of a ‘need’ to further expand the federal government control over the people with the resultant loss of freedoms and rights.

            What is truly troubling to me is the ignorance of the American public. While one side screamed about one war criminal and rooted on the other guy because he chanted ‘change’, their guy continued the war crimes and they still root him on and cuss the guy before him that was doing the very same thing. And yes, there is solid evidence that both GWB and BO have committed war crimes.

            I appreciate your input here, but to be honest, I still question your story. In looking back through your comment history you have a very consistent history of coming to the defense of the government. Granted, much of it seems to be pointed at infowars, which admittedly gives one plenty of fodder if one wishes to spend their time rooting out the chaff from the wheat.

            Given that, I still will not dismiss the evidence you have provided as the truth is what the truth is and the source somewhat unimportant as long as the information is valid. But I still believe you are willingly overlooking some important points and some extreme dangers. While the exact numbers may be different than the claims made, I believe the dangers that were trying to be exposed do exist. Now, that may be your ‘job’ or that may just be your ‘choice’, which I do not know. Either way, thanks again for the input, I always enjoy an intelligent conversation, something most that come here with an initial counter claim seem lacking the ability to provide.

          • TNUGA

            “In looking back through your comment history you have a very consistent history of coming to the defense of the government.”

            I recommend you go way back, even into 2012 and examine some of my comments regarding big government, taxes, etc. Some of the liberals I’ve challenged said some pretty stupid and nasty things back at me. This time last year, i was arguing daily with people who believed the garbage being spouted by Occupy Wall street.

            With the DHS ammo issue, I believed the 1.6 billion number for a while. It’s been an education process for me. As I gradually realized the facts, I countered a lot of comments (mostly on infowars, CNS, Freedom Outpost, etc) and was called a liberal shill, Obama lover, etc.

            By the way, the only one of the big sites that continues to write about 1.6 billion rounds is Infowars.

            The others have stopped writing about it. Tim Brown at Freedomputpost.com even went back and corrected some of his articles, based largely on info i had provided to him. ( I can provide you with our exchange on this if you’d like.)

            I disagree with your inference that I’m coming to the “defense of the government.” Take a closer look; I see at it as coming to the defense of truth and the facts.

            You will see a lot of posts on the ammo issue (and a few other farces proposed by infowars) but I don’t think you will find posts that actually defend the Obama administration. You’ll see my arguments with some of the Trayvon supporters who believed Al Sharpton, and other such issues. Prior to that mom issue, i focused on economic issues like taxes, spending, and our deficit.

            For what it’s worth, I am a successful business owner and neither of my businesses do any business with the government, other than the millions I’ve paid in taxes. No connections to firearms other than the ones I purchase and use for hunting and concealed carry. My undergraduate degree was in beef cattle production. (I jokingly tell a lot of infowars idiots that this means i can recognize Bovine Scat (BS) when I see it, smell it, or read it. There’ a lot of it on IW)

            Finally, you said, “But I still believe you are willingly overlooking some important points and some extreme dangers.” Could you elaborate on what you think I’ve overlooking? You can be blunt and honest about it. i’m a big boy. i’d really like to know. You may (or may not) be right.

          • Idaho_Roper

            IMO, it seems you overlook the serious dangers provided by HLS in general. In one of your previous comments you seemed to be okay with with many of the intentions HLS peddles, like the pitiful job they are currently doing with airline security. They are intentionally going out of their way to make sure they don’t get accused of ‘profiling’ and therefore are actually letting the most likely through unchecked.

            You also seemed to miss the dangers having a 3 division strong standing domestic army. Especially when they have labeled a huge percentage of law abiding American citizens as terrorists.

            History has shown the dangers of such government propaganda, the labeling and the programming that comes from incrementalizing oppression. With every new restriction they reduce freedom, yet have done little to nothing to provide any real security. But, they have armed up to the point of being a real threat.

            Whether or not you believe 9/11 was a false flag or an act pulled off by a bunch of muslins is rather irrelevant, the resulting government expansion in all it’s law enforcement agency’s has bordered on, if not actually created a police state The supreme court seems unwilling to check it and the masses are asleep at the wheel. Informed people, which you seem to be, need to recognize and expose this threat, not accept it, again……my opinion.

            If you believe in the constitution, then one has to oppose any and all federal domestic police as it clearly states all police powers belong to the states. If you understand the true standing of the constitution, then you understand how they get away with it although one is crazy to agree with it, much less support it.

            If you read my reply closely, you will see where I made the disclaimer as to your focus being mostly toward infowars, and I have already stated that that leaves a lot fo chaff and little wheat to pick through. Which, to be honest, leaves me undecided about your true agenda. If you are a true seeker of the truth, I have no issue at all with that. But, I also know this government has a plethora of minions out there getting paid to be internet opposition to anything going against their agenda or anyone who speaks out against it.

            So….given that, and realizing it is a change of subject. I have a question. What is your opinion of Julian Assange and Edward Snowden?

          • TNUGA

            Roper: We had an outage on our internet service yesterday. and I didn’t feel like typing a response on my phone. First, a question from your previous comment:

            You said, “I appreciate your input here, but to be honest, I still question your story.”

            What story are you questioning?

            Now for the last response:

            “IMO, it seems you overlook the serious dangers provided by HLS in general. In one of your previous comments you seemed to be okay with with many of the intentions HLS peddles, like the pitiful job they are currently doing with airline security.”

            I have no idea of what you are referring to. Can you elaborate? I remember posts arguing with Infonuts about “detention” areas in airports, and posts about TSA ammunition (which turned out to be for Air Marshals) Maybe you can refresh my memory.

            I have made some remarks about the “crotch-grabberss” at the security checkpoints, but I don’t think they could be construed as complimentary. Overall, I don’t see myself as a supporter of TSA, so you have my curiosity piqued here.

            “You also seemed to miss the dangers having a 3 division strong standing domestic army. Especially when they have labeled a huge percentage of law abiding American citizens as terrorists.”

            For the sake of the discussion, let’s agree that the number of armed agents in the DHS is equal to 3 to 5 military divisions. While i see significant differences in their organizations, I don’t pretend to be a military expert, so let’s say you’re right.

            I have serious concerns about any government invasion of my privacy, my business, and my freedoms and rights. To the extent that DHS or any agency of the government tries to conduct unconstitutional searches, detainment or any other impositions to the freedoms i enjoy, I am opposed to it.

            If you are of the opinion that DHS has amassed huge amounts of ammo, etc for the purpose of “taking out” innocent civilians, then we have a big difference in opinion. I will add that you are free to hold that opinion, and, given the other true actions of BHO and his administration, I totally understand those suspicions, I really do. It does sound like something he would do.

            This time last year, I was of the opinion that DHS had 1.6 billion rounds in warehouses, and that there was a good chance that it was purchased for the purpose of quelling any civil unrest that might occur.

            The evidence I have accumulated not clearly tells me that the 1.6 billion number was a huge exaggeration, and EVERY story I have read on the1.6 billion can be traced back to origins at Infowars, even the articles that Tom referenced above. The Smith article is an exception, but it does not say DHS had acquired and stockpiled 1.6 billion in 12 months like the others.

            So, if Homeland Security HAD acquired 1.6 Billion, we could have a discussion about what they intend to do with it. However, the facts now show that they did NOT buy 1.6 billion rounds in a year. They only have about 250 million on hand and that they have been buying fewer rounds since 2010.

            The numbers i’ve seen are consistent with the claims that they are to be used for truing and operations. My biggest complaint is that Border agents are too heavily restricted from actually firing on the job. I’m not for firing on everyone as they cross the border, but these folks are breaking the law. Why can;t they come in legally vis proper channels? In my opinion agents are being hamstrung from firing in some situations where they would be justified in using deadly force. This edict is coming from the leadership in DC, not the guys actually on the job.

            If there is a financial collapse (and that possibility gets stronger each year) I will have little concern that DHS agents will suddenly begin firing on innocent civilians like me. I am much more concerned about the likelihood of roving bands of thugs who might take to the streets once their free stuff dries up.

            If such a catastrophe happens, and someone knocks on my door and asks for food or work, I will do what i can to help. However, if someone comes to my home and attempts to take my possessions by force, they will not be met with such hospitality. “Country boy can survive!”

            “With every new restriction they reduce freedom, yet have done little to nothing to provide any real security.”

            I agree with this.

            “Whether or not you believe 9/11 was a false flag … the resulting government expansion in all it’s law enforcement agency’s has bordered on, if not actually created a police state.”

            My comments about ammo have apparently overshadowed the concerns I have about the police state. However, i also see many reports, mostly from Infonuts who interpret every little police action as a “police state alert.” It’s overstated and overdone, and caused people to ignore legitimate concerns.

            Other than the crotch-grabbers and the unconstitutional Patriot Act, I have seen very little that has actually affected my freedom in the last 10-15 years, despite what I’ve read. That’s just me, I guess.

            “If you read my reply closely, you will see where I made the disclaimer as to your focus being mostly toward infowars, and I have already stated that that leaves a lot fo chaff and little wheat to pick through.”

            For now, infowars is the only major “conservative/patriot” site that still writes about DHS having 1.6 Billion rounds, so most of my ammo comments in the past 4-6 months have probably been on Infowars. Sites like WND, CNS Freedomoutpost and others are no longer writing those numbers since it has been clearly refuted.

            So many of these sites follow the lead of Infowars on their stories and it often backfires. They are looking for new and they assume Infowars does their homework. Many sites wrote about how DHS had purchased the “No More Hesitation” targets. Infowars shrewdly implied that, but didn’t actually say that in their articles. They said that the target company sold targets to DHS (true) and that the company was promoting a line of NMH targets.(also true) but they never said DHS bought any, and they didn’t buy any. Infowars deftly enticed other sites to state that DHS HAD bought them. Wrong!

            By the way, i accept your statement about Infowars’ inaccuracies, etc, but you need to know that a lot of what you are saying sounds to me a lot like what i read in articles and comments from infowars readers. Now, that’s just my opinion, FWIW.

            “But, I also know this government has a plethora of minions out there getting paid to be internet opposition to anything going against their agenda or anyone who speaks out against it.”

            Roper, this comment is the kind of comment I get a lot, especially from Infowars, WND and some other sites. By this comment, you are saying that you have a suspicion that i am a government shill. This usually happens when people run out of facts themselves and cannot refute what i am saying. They’ll roll out terms like “troll” and “shill.” To me it’s like a kid calling names and then running to hide behind their mama’s skirt. If your story is correct, why revert to suspicions or name-calling?

            In the next-to-last paragraph of my previous response to you, I told you a little of who I am and that I have no connection with the government or its agencies that you accuse me of “defending.” This also sounds like you think I’m lying in what I have told you. Why do you think anyone who disagrees with you on certain things has to be a liar and a shill? I don’t get it. if I asked you to prove you weren’t a shill for Infowars, how could you possibly prove it?

            I am a seeker of truth, and here’s a nut-shell summary of my stances, in no particular order. (Just the ones that come to mind)

            1. Faith: Born-again Evangelical Christian
            2. Used to be a Theistic Evolutionist, now a creationist.
            3. Used to be pro-choice; now strong Pro-life.
            4. I believe man-made Global Warming is the biggest farce of the last 20 years.
            5. Strong supporter of second amendment; carry permit holder in my state; avid hunter.
            6. Overall i would describe myself as a staunch conservative with libertarian tendencies. ( I would rather have been able to vote for Ron Paul than Romney, but I held my nose and voted for Romney in the presidential election. I have written material that has been used on a major conservative talk show.
            7. My hope is that we will have a Rand Paul, Cruz, Huckabee, or someone like that on the R ticket in 2016. Hopefully not Christie!
            8. I believe in strong states rights and limited federal government. I believe our founders did, too.
            9. While I don’t agree with everything israel does, I see Israel as an ally, and the muslim counties as our enemy. They have said as much themselves.
            10 I have served for 14 years on the boar of a Christian non-profit and have provided significant support to a number of Christian ministries.
            11. We don’t have a revenue problem in our Federal government, we have a spending problem.
            12. While I think I disagree with you on certain items, I will add that I believe you have a sincere desire to preserve and protect our great country and the principles upon which it was founded.
            13. I believe that Obama and his crew desire to fundamentally change our country into a weaker and more socialistic country with power concentrated at a Federal government level.

            This isn’t an exhaustive list of my positions, but it should give you an idea.

            Now, you can justifiably accuse me of begin highly focused on the DHS ammo issue. It has been a hot button for me since last February. Before that, it was taxes, spending and other economic issues. But, guns and ammo and TRUTH are interests I have.

            In the past year, your comments might lead some readers to think you are “obsessed” with wolves and predators. i see it as learning and commenting on a subject where you have a great interest. I think that’s fine, if not great!

            BTW, I haven’t posted on those comments. Why? First, i haven’t seen anything that i disagree with. Second, it’s obvious to me that you have studied it and you are more knowledgeable than I am. The coyote population is becoming more of a problem for us. My wife raises show dogs and lives in fear that coyotes might attack her dogs. I’ve “cancelled Christmas” for 5 Coyotes on our 30-acre homesite.

            Finally: “What is your opinion of Julian Assange and Edward Snowden?”

            This may shock you, but I don’t know enough to really comment. I honestly cannot tell you who Julien Assange is. From the little I know about Snowden, I have a feeling he may have been of service by exposing some of the spying that the Feds have done. Other that that, I can’t tell you much. I’m sure you think I should know more and maybe you’re right.

            I have limited time to research things, so I tend to spend my time on thinks that interest me. I could ask you whether you like the Brauner VM1-KHE over a Vintage Neumann U47, but if you aren’t into audio recordings, you probably wouldn’t have an answer.

            Anyway, you and I probably disagree on some things, but that doesn’t mean we cannot communicate in a civil manner. I have a feeling that if there is a confrontation between Obama supporters and another side, you and I will be on the same side.

    • TRemington

      No kidding? Infowars lies and exaggerates? Dang! They ought to become more like the United States Government and tell only the truth, taking by example from Barry O.

      FYI, proper etiquette, at least on my website, is to come and offer links to where you get your facts. It’s extremely rude to make a statement and then tell the author of an article to “Look it up.”

      What I haven’t been able to find and substantiate, mostly because there are no sources worth a pile of camel dung (they all lie), to get actual information. But what I want to know is what would be the amount of ammo purchased IF Homeland Security did not exist? You and all others provide only someone’s idea of data from what Homeland Security, the look alike Gestapo force, did one or two years ago. It hasn’t been around long enough to have much history, nor to establish any real and credible “normalcy.”.

      So, DHS is buying ammo. Are they buying all that ammo that the departments that now come under their power brokerage, used to and would still be buying? Or is the ammo they are buying in addition to what was purchased before the fascist Bush created DHS?

      And is DHS buying rounds for the military now?

      And you are missing the point I think. Why IS THERE a damned DHS and why are they buying ANY ammo?

      • Idaho_Roper

        Tom
        Here is a good link that shows the increases since BO jumped on board. Including links to the actual solicitation numbers. Only a fool would deny they are not arming up or tying up or both.

        http://www.alt-market.com/articles/1003-the-history-of-dhs-ammunition-purchases

        One thing I found interesting is the 135 grain 40 S&W ammo. That is an extremely light bullet for that caliber, makes me wonder from what and how it is constructed.

        • TRemington

          So then, the below list is those departments that now fall under DHS. So, how much ammo did these departments collectively purchase prior to the unconstitutional creation of DHS?

          Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
          CBRN Countermeasures Programs
          Domestic Emergency Support Teams
          Energy Security and Assurance Program
          Environmental Measurements Laboratory
          Federal Computer Incident Response Center
          Federal Emergency Management Agency
          Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
          Federal Protective Service
          Immigration and Naturalization Service
          National Biological Warfare
          Defense Analysis Center
          National Communications System
          National Domestic Preparedness Office
          National Infrastructure Protection Center
          Nuclear Incident Response Team
          Office for Domestic Preparedness
          Plum Island Animal Disease Center
          Strategic National Stockpile
          National Disaster Medical System
          Transportation Security Administration
          U.S. Coast Guard
          U.S. Customs Service
          U.S. Secret Service

          • Idaho_Roper

            DHS has the equivalent manpower of 3 army divisions and that does not count state and local LE.

            Bo wasn’t shitting when he said he wanted a domestic army. This is a free standing army from hell as it is designed not to deal with a foreign threat, but what they consider a threat from citizens.

      • TNUGA

        Tom, forgive me if my comment seemed rude. That was not my intent. As you may be aware, there are many forums that do not allow the posting of links. Since this was my first time on your site, I was unaware of your rules, and I apologize. I will provide links and sources for my comments from this point on. Likewise I hope that you will provide reliable sources for your numbers. I would like to have a civil discussion of this with you, and apparently I upset you quite a bit.

        I wholeheartedly agree that the BHO administration, along with most politicians, has a long history of lying and stretching the truth. However, I do not think that this should be used as an excuse for conservatives to make up stuff or for us to pass along information without verifying its accuracy. Unfortunately, I was a party to passing along this same information before I found out the facts.

        I hope that you will take the time to actually follow the admonition on your home page: “The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you know nothing about.” I’m not implying that you know nothing on this, only that there is more information that, apparently, you have not seen, and some of the information you have appears to be in serious error. All I ask is an honest examination.

        As an avid hunter, carry permit holder and member of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, I am a strong supporter of our 2nd amendment rights. I was also initially convinced by the reports of DHS buying 1.6 to 2 billion rounds of ammo. Most reports that came out last spring described the numbers as being in the “previous year” or the previous 10 months.

        You describe your self as a “researcher,” so I’ll be glad to give you all the information that I found in the last 11 months on this issue. If you are indeed a researcher, you will not be opposed to at least examining the info I give you. Let me also state that I am open to any honest and factual refutations you might have of the items I post. If I am wrong, I will own it. Fair enough?

        Are you willing to do the same, or are you so committed to this that you cannot look at it with an open mind?

        As a staunch conservative, I am very concerned about the direction BHO is taking our country. In fact, you and I will probably agree on most issues like gun rights, Benghazi, Big government, abortion, etc..

        However, I do feel that we should deal with facts, not rumors on this issue. This one has been a hot button for me, since I was embarrassed to find out I was wrong on this issue initially. I could still be wrong, so if you have good information, please fill me in.

        First, allow me to provide you with the link to my assertion that the US military used 1.79 Billion rounds in 2005.

        http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05687.pdf
        See page 9, Table 2.

        Next, Here’s my link to the data showing that the US Army used over 1.2 Billion rounds of small caliber ammo from 2005-2008, and almost 1.2 billion in 2004.

        http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

        Now, I know that some general said they were using 5.5 million rounds per month in Iraq, but I’ve seen no official substantiation of that. Assuming he is correct, though, it still does not consider the huge amounts of ammo that are expended in training. You could not “sustain a 24-year war” without providing training for the soldiers.

        There’s a lot of additional information I can provide, but I’ll start with those two links and the third item below.

        This third item was the point where I began to see the flaws in the 1.6 Billion-rounds-rumor. I still remember the night I added this up and began to sweat because I realized the numbers were fraudulent.

        In the August 12, 2012 article below, Infowars clearly states that DHS had posted a solicitation for over 750 million rounds of ammo and even refers to the 5-year solicitation as a purchase:

        “The purchase comes in addition to an order for 450 million rounds of .40-caliber hollow point bullets which wasfulfilled by Alliant Techsystems Inc. back in March, news greeted by some as an indication that the DHS was arming itself in preparation to go to war with the American people.”

        -In the third paragraph you will see a link, “The PDF file,” that Infowars provided, apparently to add authenticity to their article. Apparently most Infowars readers never checked it. It’s about 25 pages of number to add up, 31 different line items over 5 years.

        If you want to, you can add it up, or would you rather me supply you with a spreadsheet with the number added up for you?

        I’ve added it up several times and had my assistant enter the number into a spreadsheet. I get 63,256,000 every time. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I did ace the math section of the SAT, so I’m satisfied that my addition is correct.

        http://www.infowars.com/dhs-to-purchase-another-750-million-rounds-of-ammo/

        Now, consider that NO CONTRACT was ever awarded on this solicitation. Therefore, not one round has ever been purchased on this solicitation! So right there, 750 million rounds of the alleged 1.6 Billion disappears. There are other “mistakes” in the 1.6 billion number, but let’s focus on this one first..

        For now, would you kindly examine the first two links regarding US military ammo purchases, along with this one, and tell me if you think I am wrong in any of these three? If so, tell me why and I would be glad to give it an honest examination. I just want the truth!

        To keep the length down, I’ll address some of your other questions in my next post. BTW, I see you are from Maine, a state I’ve spent some time in and really enjoyed. I spent a summer near Saco-Biddeford and Stanford, and a little time up at Millinocket. My wife and I went back for a fall leaf tour several years later and stayed in several of the delightful bed-and -breakfasts in Maine and NH. I also have some friends who used to live on South Corona in Clearwater. Small world!

        • TRemington

          I am not angry and you should stop jumping to so many conclusions.

          Yes I will look at the information at the links you provide……again.

          There are some things that you should know but I’m not sure you are seeing due to your desire to prove somebody wrong.

          This specific article was posted nearly one year ago. A lot of water has gone under the bridge. Slow down and take a deep breath. It will be alright…no really it will.

          I have spent a considerable amount of time reading about information about DHS and their need to buy ammo. I find it all lies….all of it. I have about as much faith and trust in government as I do nothing and even less confidence in groups like NRA and National Shooting Sports Foundation who are no different than the rest of the prostitutes ready to use any opportunity, real or imagined, to solicit money from unsuspecting people.

          I’ve been doing this a long time. I dig and research and try to find actual accounts of what has taken place and what is taking place and come to some kind of conclusion…..or not, based on experience and what I’ve gathered. If I cannot offer a reasonable explanation, I usually simply ask tons of questions or provide enough information from several sources in hopes of inciting some kind of independent thought from readers.

          I still have far too many questions to offer any kind of an update to what DHS is doing and unless you have spent enough time reading my work, I don’t think you are in all that much of a position to cast judgements and make assumptions. In all honesty I think I will surprise you.

          This isn’t an attempt to put you down and I’m not trying to be condescending or attempting to censor you in anyway. I am always open to new information. That doesn’t, of course mean, I am going to research it now and answer yours or any other reader’s answers as though I were at their beck and call.

          So, calm down and relax. I am tolerant of a lot on this site, but will not put up with babysitting whiners, putting up with trolls, or those who can’t write in any way that isn’t a broken record of vulgar and disgusting language.

          Other than that, welcome and I hope you do stick around and provide comments and links to information you have found valuable. You can expect the same here, along with my commentary and opinion of which I generally have to let readers know I’m offering opinion.

          After all of this, I still think the real issue is being lost in mathematics as to whether or not 1.6 billion bullets could keep a war going for God knows how long.

          My only important issue in this entire issue is why did the fascist George W. Bush really create DHS (and I’m not interested in the fake reason of protecting Americans). And if DHS was formulated as W said, to unite all these other departments under one central office for the dissemination of information and better communication, then why is DHS buying ammo, even if it’s just one bullet?

          • TNUGA

            Tom, I look forward to what you find. Let me say that the big issue here for me wasn’t whether or not it should sustain a 24-year war, it was the accuracy of whether or not DHS had actually bought 1.8 Billion rounds.

            Infowars made several statements that these amounts had been purchased within the past year (or 10 months as they did in the article about the 21.6 million rounds) and apparently you had seen the Infowars article about the 21.6 million rounds. BTW, that solicitation was actually for 240,000 rounds, not 21.6 million, and it was reduced to 140,000 by the time it was awarded a contract.

            http://www.infowars.com/dhs-purchases-21-6-million-more-rounds-of-ammunition/

            BTW, that solicitation was actually for 240,000 rounds, not 21.6 million, and it was reduced to 140,000 by the time it was awarded a contract.

            https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=c4982000fdc5082342d528cfcb6e6352&_cview=0

            For me, the issue is that the exaggerated reports of Billions led people to believe that DHS had actually ordered and purchased 1.6 billion rounds and caused an historic shortage. The facts that I see now show that DHS actually purchased less in 2012 that in 2010, and their purchases are about 1% of the ammo made in the US.

            The reason for the shortage is panic buying by all of us gun owners in response to Obama’s incessant calls for useless new gun laws. Winchester’s annual and quarterly reports tell me that in 1st qtr 2013, they received 3 times as many orders from commercial/consumer accounts as they could ship, while government orders were, essentially flat.

            So, my main issue here is that DHS didn’t buy 1.6 to 2 billion in a year, and they did not cause a shortage. The cause of the shortage isn’t DHS purchases, it’s Obama’s attempts to take our guns that have cause the shortage. Gotta run meet me wife at our church.

        • TRemington

          “If you are indeed a researcher, you will not be opposed to at least examining the info I give you.”

          Let me also take a second to explain something. I am a researcher of my own free will and choice. I choose what I will research and at what depth I will research. Right now whether or not DHS bought ammunition and how much and for what reasons, is very low on my priority list.

      • TNUGA

        Tom, I finally had time to get back to you on some of this stuff. i’ll try to be succinct.

        I’m not even going to try to defend the DHS or its existence as an inclusive agency. I think Bush’s intent when he set it up in 2003 was to facilitate communication between some agencies that were already set up and perhaps gain by some streamlining and perhaps again some efficiencies. Maybe Tom Ridge wasn’t the best choice to head it up, but it got worse with Chertoff and then Big Sis under BHO. More on the agencies in a bit.

        Tom, my biggest concern is the way so many people became convinced last year about this time that DHS had actually purchased 1.6 to 2 billion rounds of ammunition. I was one of them myself.

        Whether you realize it or not, the odds are almost everything you read about these huge purchases originated in an Infowars article, or on one go their broadcasts. For example, the Andrew Malcolm article you cited above. links directly to an Infowars article about the 21.6 M in. Paragraph 5. Paragraph 3 has a link to an Examiner article which links to another info wars article.

        I’ve chased a lot of these down and, so far, every article can be linked or traced back to articles at infowars, other than the Alt-Market article that Idaho_Roper linked to. That article is much more accurate than any of the reports that claimed DHS had bought 1.6 to 2 billion rounds in the previous year.

        The Alt-Market list totals only 1.49 Billion rounds of actual solicitations over 8 years, and less than 1.4 billion was contracted. Since most of this was on “up-to” contracts with options, the actual amount that will be purchased on that list will probably be between 900 and 1,100 million rounds over the 13 year period from 2004 to 2017 when the two big contracts expire.

        Why so much less than the 1.4 billion in the contracts? Several of the big contracts had options that were allowed to expire, For example, the solicitation for 450 million rounds replaced prior contracts for 375 M and 200 M and the remaining options on those two contracts were not exercised. (I made additional comments to Idaho_roper on these solicitations this morning)

        Having said all that, I would point out that the numbers are consistent with my earlier statement that DHS bought 103 million rounds in FY2012.

        I think this would also be a good time to response to your comment above that alludes to the difficulty in obtaining reliable information. I think most Americans, such as myself, share a growing distrust of our government. I’ve never felt BHO was trustworthy, and the events of the past few years bear that out. I’m probably most suspicious of statements that are made in speeches.

        Written reports have more of an audit trail and it’s easier to verify or disprove written material, especially when numbers and purchase are involved. i know some people who say “I don’t believe ANYTHING that comes from the government,” and I understand that sentiment. However, how in the world will we know or have an idea of government purchases without some kind of verifiable source? If it’s a government purchase, there is paperwork.

        In fact, Infowars regularly uses links to the FBO site to add “authenticity” to their articles. Their problem is their inability to add numbers and to accurately read the solicitations. (I actuall think it is a deliberate deception to scare people, but that’s my opinion)

        The articles last year, such as the one you cited, usually referred to the DHS “stockpiling” 1.6 to 2 billion rounds. By definition, stockpiling is accumulating something into your inventory in preparation foe some future need. Most people, including myself, were convinced that DHS had at least 1.6 to 2 billion rounds in their warehouses, but that number is actually about 250 million rounds. That seemed to explain the ammo shortage and it fit with our suspicion of Obama.

        As I indicated to Roper, DHS actually purchased about1% of the ammo made in the US in 2012, and even less in 2013. Our shortages are due to huge increases in demand by all of us gun owners, a result of BHO’s hopes of adding gun restrictions.

        To repsond to your questions about what the purchases would be if DHS didn’t exist, I’ll simply tell you what i know along with what i think.

        Ammo used by DHS is used almost exclusively by 7 of the various agencies under DHS: Border Patrol, ICE, TSA, Federal Protective Services, FLETC, Coast Guard, and Secret Service. All of these agencies were in existence in some form or other prior to 2003 when DHS was set up, with founding dates ranging from1965 to 1971.

        Here’s my response (or my opinion on the specifics you brought up:

        “But what I want to know is what would be the amount of ammo purchased IF Homeland Security did not exist?”

        My opinion on this is that most of these 7 agencies would be using about what they are using today. They were in existence before DHS and the responsibilities (or the perceived need) has grown in response to terrorism. Bush couple the number of Border Patrol Agents, but our government has hamstrung them and our border is still porous.

        “You and all others provide only someone’s idea of data from what Homeland Security, the look alike Gestapo force, did one or two years ago.”

        I would just say that my database of solicitations goes back to 2004, and the solicitations indicate to me that DHS probalby started out using substantially less than the recent numbers of 100-120 million per year. It is unclear to me what these agencies had in inventory as of 2003 and I am not certain as to when their centralized buying really went into place, although things picked up around 2006.

        “Are they buying all that ammo that the departments that now come under their power brokerage, used to and would still be buying? Or is the ammo they are buying in addition to what was purchased before the fascist Bush created DHS?”

        In my opinion, “Yes.” This is based on a number of articles I have read as well as details of the various contracts.

        While the contracts may be initiated by CBP or one of the other agencies, any DHS agency can place delivery orders as needed against these contracts.

        “And is DHS buying rounds for the military now?”

        No, at least I’ve seen no evidence to that effect. Most of the small caliber military ammo is manufactured by ATK under contract for the Army at the Lake City plant. That facility has recently produced 1.4 Billion rounds per year for the military or about 14 times what DHS purchases. Additional ammo is made at a few other small plants and I understand that companies like Federal, Winchester, Hornady and some others supply additional needs, but those solicitations are made by the Department of Defense.

        I hope this helps explain my thoughts. I know it’s a lot of stuff, so if you have any questions on the specifics to need sources to back up these things let me know. i’ll be glad to provide detail.

  • TNUGA

    FWIW, the GAO report finally canoe out. It shows that DHS ammo purchases have declined each year since 2009.

    2009: 133 million rounds
    2010: 117 million
    2011: 100 million
    2012: 96 million
    2013: 84.4 million

    http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/660143.pdf

    51 pages of details that pretty much support what I said last year.