August 19, 2017

Are Wolves Here to Stay or Should They All Go?

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

redridinghoodWe are all pretty much aware of the old adage that history repeats itself, but what most don’t bother to think about is why that is so, if it is actually factual. The frontrunner in answering that question is that we repeat history, at least in bad ways(by somebody’s standards), because we fail to learn or willingly or unwillingly forget to remember. There is another possible reason for repeating history that, I’m sure, very few people even consider: we repeat history because that is what we are being programmed to do. All one really has to do is study history, I mean really study history, not the crap being shoved down our kids’ throats in our institutions of higher indoctrination, to gain an understanding of that truth.

If we know history and don’t err in forgetting that history and we actually learn from it, we discover that certain things occurred for a reason and had specific outcomes to them…..whether planned or not. Let’s examine wolves and their history for just a brief moment.

If we examine the word-of-mouth accounts of events surrounding wolves, i.e. journals, diaries, news accounts and anywhere official documents were kept of the days’ events, we learn that wolves existed in much of the territory of the Lower 48 states. How much, is still open to debate. Some believe in some sort of wildlife nirvana, pre-Columbian, but this theory doesn’t always or even consistently agree with the recorded events of the time.

Regardless wolves were on the landscape and I think few will argue that there have always been conflicts between wolves and people. Many years ago, as people sought better lives and there existed an expansion of populated areas, to coincide with a growing human population, settlers headed West and people headed deeper into the forest of the East to harvest timber, clear for farmland, etc. This brought on more conflict between wolves and humans, and other wildlife.

People discovered, sometimes the hard way, that wolves were not an animal they wanted around. Leftist, animal rights perverts tell us that the wolf is misunderstood and that stories such as Little Riding Hood were only fabricated to instill fear or just for entertainment value. However, real history places tales like Little Red Riding Hood, right in line with actual events on the ground. Disregarding of the truth is for sinister purposes only.

People quickly learned that wolves were dangerous, killed off their livestock and spread disease (rabies scared the dickens out of people then because they knew it killed most people and that wild dogs and other critters carried the disease. History also teaches us that wolves would bite unsuspecting children. Who wouldn’t be scared?). And thus began the effort to kill every wolf that could be found. In short, hundreds of years ago humans understood that wolves in human settlements was a terrible thing and something had to be done about it. And so, they killed them, nearly all, and it was a good thing.

Either we did not learn from history, we do not remember history or we are being programmed to repeat history, while at the same time being told non factual information (indoctrination/propaganda) for the purpose of misleading the people to gain public support for private agendas. Out of what appears to be ignorance, somebody came up with the idea that wolves and people could live together. It wasn’t ignorance. Can wolves and people live together? Can humans and wolves share the same landscape? Do wolves belong in wilderness areas only? Do wolves belong at all? And why should humans be forced to do this?

All the ins and outs of the so-called “Wolf Wars”, including the political wrangling, corruption, perversion, deceit and everything else that is no earthly good surrounding the existence of wolves, cannot be discussed in one article. I’m not even sure a full-length book could do it much justice, and so I’ll leave this part of it for future discussions as they present themselves.

However, from the moment the animal perverts began their assault on the rest of civilized humanity, wishing to force humans to live with wolves, refusing to consider history and the history of disease, bench marks, goals and lines drawn in the sand appeared around every corner. One of the grave mistakes, in my opinion, that the wolf perverts have done is never being satisfied with agreed-upon goals to measure success. An example of this would be the agreed upon number of wolves and breeding pairs that would be the benchmark of when wolf introduction would be a success and the nasty dog could be removed from protection under the Endangered Species Act. It didn’t stop there. It continued and shows no signs of ever stopping. As a consequence, more and more people are abandoning the stupid concept that humans and wolves can live together successfully.

Throughout the several years of debate, there has always been talked about the “what ifs” of when the first human in modern times, in the Lower 48, would be killed by a wolf or wolves. I’m not sure that there existed any official “line in the sand”, but often the talk would involve the tragedy that would exist, not if, but when, the first humans would be attacked and killed by wolves.

During the past few years I have been one of those who claimed that there would come a day when somebody and/or somebody’s child, would become table fare for a pack of wolves. What I was never able to come to terms with, is how such an event would effect how I felt about wolves.

In general terms, at least to this point in time, I came down on the side that wolves should not be extirpated, as they had been by early in the 20th Century, but that there needed to be strict control to keep numbers to a minimum in order to keep at a minimum the conflicts with humans, including but not limited to personal and private property injuries/destruction, spread of disease, and destruction of prey bases. I certainly don’t think I am in a minority of any kind with this kind of thinking.

How will that change, if at all, when the time arrives that wolves begin killing humans?

Such a terrible event may have already happened. One of the problems with being able to learn what precisely did happen, is there exist almost no news coverage of the particulars of what happened to two women in Idaho, supposedly out for a weekend of hiking. Amy Linkerts and Dr. Jo Elliot-Blakeslee have both been found dead at Craters Of The Moon National Monument & Preserve. Details are sketchy at best and to this point nothing at all has been released about those details and any autopsies that were performed. There are people demanding answers but, to my knowledge nobody else has any information other that the scant reports that can be found on line – here, here, here.

I have withheld any comment on the event until there at least exists official statements of cause of death and the events leading up to their deaths. I will not speculate on what might have happened.

What I will share is how, just reading about this event and knowing there is a possibility they may have been attacked by wolves, I felt about the entire event. I think it helped me to come to terms with whether or not my position on wolves, and how they should be controlled, would change. I have given this a few days so that I am not writing from a knee-jerk reactionary cause and have had a moment to think about it.

I am now seriously considering that once the day has come that any human in this country has been attacked and killed by wolves, that my attention and efforts will go toward an extirpation of the wolf…again. The animal is NOT extinct or any where near such globally. Wolves exist all over the world by the thousands and they have no place whatsoever living in close proximity to human beings.

Having now made this statement, and also stating more than once, that it’s only a matter of time before a human is attacked and killed by wolves, why is it that I/we must wait until somebody dies first? Yes, people have, for centuries, been attacked and killed by wolves. However, myself being guilty of what I accuse others of, this strikes close enough to home to cause changes of thoughts and consideration.

Perhaps it is the eminent death of some loving mother’s and father’s child that will be the wake up call but it shouldn’t have to be. It was a bad idea from the very beginning to force a nasty, historically unwanted, disease-ridden wild dog on innocent people.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I value one human life over that of every wild or domestic dog, or any other animal on this planet. It’s time for changes of thought and consideration.

Share
  • somsai

    I too have been waiting for any sort of coronors report on the second one or to see how this all shakes out.

  • kristilloyd

    https://www.facebook.com/SearchForDrJo Exposure and dehydration led to their deaths. The place is not occupied by wolves or other wildlife. How can you even speculate that they were killed by wolves? These were not young women in their healthiest years. I hope no one in their families see this kind of stuff where you are using their deaths to spread ignorance, hysteria and speculation.

    • GoldDust

      It’s a migratory route for elk and deer through and around it. I’ve hunted all around the Craters of the Moon for years. There is also all types of wildlife in and around the Craters of the Moon. There are hidden springs, hidden valleys or narrow slot canyons with various plant and grass. I’ve watched deer pop up out of places in there and drop back down into another. Farther out where the lava runs break up, there are alfalfa crops grown. Craters of the Moon is surrounded by hunt units 50-52A-68. Plenty of spring runoff from the Pioneer Mountains sheds off all around there. There is a resident elk herd that stays on the desert, units 52A-68. Last time I seen them I observed two 400″ Bull Elk.

    • Chandie Bartell

      I’ve been to Crater of the Moon twice in my life both times when I was in my teens and 20’s, and hiked through-out the entire area. Where do you get the idea there is no wildlife in the lava fields and deer and elk don’t travel through it? Both deer and elk can handle rough country, and have no problem covering bare rocky surfaces.

      You really need to come out here and understand wildlife how it really is not in a “book.”

      If you saw where our Mountain Goats and Rams hang out on vertical face rocks you would understand. Mountain Goats can be seen going up the Lochsa River, using binoculars you can see them a lot of time just sunning themselves right on a jagged point of a vertical cliff.

      Mountain goats and rams will graze on rock terrain, and go to extremes to reach a bunch of grass on the steepest terrain.

      I just posted an e-mail that was circulating regarding the woman, about how she was missing and information wasn’t forthcoming on the second woman.

      Like GD said it’s possible they both died of exposure, but at the same time it does seem a little -odd, and information on the Doctor hasn’t been forthcoming.

      Also there is NO hunting at the Craters of the Moon National Park, good try.

      Considering the Kenton Carnegie case and the cover-up and down playing of all wolf attacks and fatalities in the last 100 years in North America, everybody is going to suspect many things, including the fact it could be the over-population of wolves.

      We got another guy missing on the St. Joe River as well. Could it be exposure possible, could it be cougars possibly, could it be bears possibly, disease, accident, foul-play all are possibilities, but when you say could it be WOLVES- Look who pops up out of the wood-work.

      YOU!!!!! A wolf pimp

      • Jim Theringer

        If you have hiked these fields like you said, then you should know it’s like walking on sharp knives in many areas. They can tear up boots and shoes in no time. You definitely don’t walk out onto these flows in a pair of Nikes. You need thick soles on your boots, and at that, they will be worn thin after many miles of hiking in it. In fact, one of the first explorers of the lava fields took his dog out onto it, and that was a mistake, because it tore up the dogs heels, and they ended up carrying the dog. There’s even an article about it, that I listed below. Wolves and Coyotes would face the same consequences out on it. I highly doubt wolves were on the Blue Dragon Flow. There’s areas all around the edges of the flows that are more suitable terrain for wildlife, but deep in the flows is not one such place. You will find bats nesting in the broken lava tube caves, rat species, a species of pika, some species of rabbits on the flows, but mostly small game is on the flows. The bigger mammals hang around the edges of the flows. These areas harbor vast colonies of plants that survive from the rich soil created by the lava. That’s where the wildlife will tend to be. Deeper in the flows, fewer plants grow.

        http://www.nps.gov/crmo/historyculture/robert-limbert.htm

        • GoldDust

          The Monument itself is a combination of lava flows and suitable terrain for wildlife. Just like outside of the monument boundaries we have a combination of lava flows and suitable terrain for wildlife. Deer will cross those flows, I’ve seen em doing it.

          It’s a helluva place, hell on equipment, I know. This same type of terrain stretches from Carey west out to Mountain Home, even further. There are coyotes and wolves out there.

          One canyon out there I frequent is 100′ deep, 2-300′ across, with eighty foot Douglas Fur standing in parts of it.

          • Jim Theringer

            Mule Deer are permanent residents in the desert, and at Craters of the Moon. But, their hooves are adapted for the rocky terrain. Wolves on the other hand have padded feet. While they could cross the flows, I have my doubts Wolves are hanging in the blue dragon lava flow area. That area is where the latest volcanic episode occurred, and that’s the area these ladies went into. Now out near Echo Crater, i’ve seen coyotes and mule deer standing on
            the old remnant volcano, and they are all over the desert on the southern portion where the flows are older, and vegetation have retaken the terrain over the course of millenia. The flows are also older out near Carey and south near Laidlaw road where the terrain is more worn. You will find wildlife in these more older and worn down flow areas.

            Call me skeptical that they died from Wolves. I think the safer bet is they walked out onto these fields, the older lady (Dr Jo) got into trouble a few miles into the flow by either falling and breaking her leg, or weakened from dehydration. They realized they had a long way back, so the other lady went to get help. A cold weather front came in that dropped temperatures well below freezing in hours, which is a common occurrence in this terrain during September. Even two miles out, would feel like hiking 5 miles on a normal trail. Every step is a challenge, because it’s like rock climbing and scrambling up boulders that are sharp and loose. If the front was dropping rain and snow, then the terrain becomes a slick mess. This lady was in her 60’s and probably not fit to handle it.

            This incident also occurred before the annual pronghorn and elk migrations, which usually peak in October into November. I’m skeptical on the claims. I also have spent time wandering around this desert and know it fairly well.

          • wolf moderate

            I think wolves were chasing them so they ran out into the lava flows. The wolves sat at the perimeter and waited.

          • Jim Theringer

            Go hike the Tree Molds and Blue Dragon Flow, then come back with that theory with a straight smile on your face.

            Supposedly Dr Jo was into geology and hiking.

          • Chandie Bartell

            So how did Dr. Jo die, did the medical examiner release the reports?

          • GoldDust

            Lol.. maybe was the ghosts of those stage coach robbers defending their hidden loot.

          • GoldDust

            If you do hike it wear carharts, boots and tough gloves. photo the occasional coyote scat. Don’t fall through any where.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Haha

          • GoldDust

            I speculated last night that one of the ladies became sick, the other over exerted herself busting tail for the car probably panicked for the welfare of her friend, didn’t make it. At the time it was raining, snowing, and likely windy with fog. The only point I’m making is the false claim there isn’t wildlife in and around the Monument. I’ve personally observed deer and wildlife crossing lava flows. I tore the hell out of myself getting a large buck out of one down there, and I’m smarter than any wolf or coyote with a blood lust on.

          • Jim Theringer

            Pronghorns are also common residents in that desert.

            I think we are on the same page. I’m just skeptical that wolves were the culprits, especially where these ladies were found. I’ve crossed the lava fields on many occasions. If wolves are going to hunt, they are probably not going to spend a lot of time deep in the Blue Dragon Flow.

        • Chandie Bartell

          Well, Jim I was there twice with my family, and we have pictures of us in albums standing by the Crater of the Lake Moon, and yes we did hike up to get to the crater and around the crater, it was in the summer and there was snow still up there, and no I didn’t wear hiking boots either.

          I wasn’t picturing somebody going through “lava fields.” There’s more to the park from what I clearly remember.

          • Jim Theringer

            Once again, those that know the area can tell you what probably happened. It seems that you aren’t familiar with the area, so you are making speculations to fit an agenda.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Actually you are correct as I’ve only visited it twice the crater -part, and I was a teenager one time my early 20’s so you are looking at 32 years ago.

            I never said I wasn’t speculating, this is the e-mail I got:

            Cover
            up of missing hikers around Crater Moon, out of Boise, Idaho?
            Surfacing this week are two seemingly unrelated events, but both carry
            the glaring theme of the federal government’s gross intrusion into the
            private lives of families and into the workings of local and state
            governments nationwide. The long tentacles of the US Department of
            Justice appear to be stifling parental dissent against Common Core,
            while the US Department of Fish and Wildlife continues to force
            predatory wolf packs into already inundated Western rural communities
            and wilderness areas.

            The recent disappearance and death of two
            female hikers in and around the Boise, ID Craters of the Moon hiking
            trails are causing outrage among residents who fear a massive scale
            cover up of what really happened to the two women. The body of Amy
            Linkert has been found, but attempts to find out what really happened to
            Dr. JoElliot-Blakeslee, an employee of the Oregon Dept. of Corrections,
            are hitting major stonewalling by authorities who should be in the
            know. Retired US Fish & Wildlife Biologist Jim Beers
            (jimbeers7@comcast.net) and other area citizens fear that a marauding
            wolf pack or other predators like a bear or a cougar may have attacked,
            killed and eaten the women. “Distortions of the evidence to exonerate
            the wolves” may serve the larger aim of the feds who want the Gray Wolf
            to remain listed on the Endangered Species registry. Local residents
            want local control of wolf packs; they are demanding that wolf packs in
            their local zones be kept under jurisdiction of their local authorities.
            But the back story really may involve a federal effort to push Western
            ranchers, homeowners, hikers, and nature lovers indoors and off of ever
            shrinking American lands in order to give more control to the federal
            government!

          • Jim Theringer

            Whose Jim Beers? I never heard of him. Does he live in Carey or Arco, or is he from Boise?

            First, anyone that treks around the deserts, knows that you wear proper gear, you always carry enough water for at least a day and a half, and if you go out into the lava you better have a headlamp, and gps. From my understanding these ladies didn’t have any of that. They didn’t have the proper clothing to last a night out in the desert, and that’s why the first one was determined to have died from exposure. If she died from exposure, it’s more than likely the other one did as well. She was found about 20 some days after the first one, and her body was more decomposed.

            That email is a bit odd. Not sure who or what sent it..

          • Chandie Bartell

            That email is a bit odd. Not sure who or what sent it..

            Answer: The who is a person involved in politics and this is the first type of e-mail I have received from this person in regards to a “missing person.”

            The “what” can you explain to me what you are referring to? Sounds a little snobbish.

            The e-mail is odd, but not as “odd” as the deluge of information by the thousands that come from the side profiting from wolves.

            So let’s start over again, “Why is it taking so long to get the medical results regarding the doctor’s cause of death, for what ever reasons?” She turned up missing the end of September and it’s December.

            Also do you comment over at Ralph Maughan’s Wildlife News? It seems like you have a lot of background information regarding wildlife issues.

            You didn’t answer that question, just SPECULATED that Dr. JoElliot-Blakeslee died of exposure.

            I’m not the one that is bringing this issue up it’s people apparently that know the “woman” that are seeking information on the cause of her death and details, and they aren’t receiving it.

            But it obviously got your attention and bothered you.

            Information I have received since was the fact she was only a mile away and it took 20 more days to find her, and the results are not being provided regarding her death.

          • Jim Theringer

            I’m not familiar with Ralph Maughan or a lot of the other issues regarding the politics about wolves. I’m not that into the wolf issue. When two people die in the area that I frequent a lot, it’s about the biggest thing that happens in the area. Sorry. I think you’re getting too much out of this.

            It’s evident to me what happened. I don’t think there is a conspiracy, even though that’s all news to some of us yokels.

          • Chandie Bartell

            I see. Well if you were involved in the issue of wolves, and to me they were dumped by my house in 2007, and were effected by them, you would be involved and would understand why I and others react the way they do.

            If you were on here and see how everything is questioned down to the punctuation mark by “others” on this website to defend an agenda, you would understand, and everywhere else on the internet, as well as media, facebook, newspapers etc. It’s a lie that is being pushed to force an agenda.

            It has changed the people, and I don’t trust anybody anymore that get “defensive” when they see the word “wolves,” for any reason.

            That is why I reacted the way I did.

            If you were on here, a place I frequent a lot you would understand, “wolves” are the biggest thing that has happened in the NRM states in the area I live.

            That’s all.

          • Jim Theringer

            I suppose so. I’m trying to be rational.

            Having a satellite phone is obviously something anyone should consider now a days. Wouldn’t want to get my name caught up in one of these conspiracies, should a similar fate fallen on me.

          • somsai

            Well thanks for all your comments. They certainly added context to the terrain and conditions all this occurred. I walked out onto the lava flows at the end of a long survey beginning over by Wyoming. It was in the late 80s. I mostly remember about the wear and tear on our boots. I need to go take another look someday.

          • Chandie Bartell

            I think you’re over-reacting, if you follow this site, which you just popped up on an open thread and commented you would be aware that isn’t the historical history of it.

          • Jim Theringer

            Ok, if you believe so, then that is simply your belief system that you built around your view of reality.

            I have nothing more to add to this thread. I’ve stated that the Craters lava flows where these ladies ventured into and were found, require a certain skill level and knowledge of the terrain. Those of us that have experienced these fields know the challenge it is to cross through them. That’s all I wanted to add.

            I have no interest to get into a debate on conspiracies. Craters is a wild place, and a challenging place, if you get off the main park road.

          • TRemington

            Just curious as to whether or not you know the two victims? You seem to have made assumptions that are, “simply your belief system that you built around your view of reality.”

            I shied away from speculation on this issue because I, 1. Don’t know the victims, and 2. Never been to this site. My issue isn’t about what might or might not have happened. It’s about the tone of the debate and the direct it might be headed in.

            Unless you know the victims and have inside information into the details of the investigation/autopsies, you are speculating the same as others, but with perhaps some personal experiences you may have had. In addition, others have had experiences you don’t seem to agree with, perhaps because you’ve not personally had them. The issue becomes respect for all perspectives, then doesn’t it? And I think for the most part that has been shown here……with some tweaking.

            Without facts to back up claims, presenting oneself to have “one up” on others because of more and better experiences, while it can add interesting information for further speculation and debate, does not make anyone’s assumptions necessarily any better than someone else.

            Often, discussion, becomes debate (sometimes a bit heated and always misunderstood) and just by the simple way a person projects themselves, can turn a debate in the wrong direction. This “more informed” attitude should be checked at the door…..especially without substantiation or sources of claims made.

            This applies to any discussion about any debate that is open to the public. Administrators often adjust their settings in the discussion forums to close debate after a certain period of time, mostly because most of anything worth anything can be said in a day or two. After that, the discussion usually turns to crap posted by idiots (No I’m not implying anyone in this discussion is an idiot.)

            The way the software is designed in the Disqus commenting system, a person has the capability of posting links to substantiate claims being made. That act, of and by itself, can serve quite a good purpose, although there are always those born to argue and dispute anything just for the sake of the act.

            Aside from presenting information, with links and/or attrition, most everything else is mere speculation/assumptions based on one’s own experiences or the rumors they’ve heard and want to pass on.

            This advice, I believe because I am the administrator of this website, is good for everyone. When practiced makes much better reading.

            I just thought this a relevant place to offer my advice.

            Thanks.

          • Jim Theringer

            I have made some bad assumptions. I assumed this was a website devoted to outdoors, fishing, and hunting. I found that assumption was misplaced the more time I spent reading through some of these pages. I also falsely assumed people have common sense. But, your original intent of this article was to drum up hysteria and to possibly place a conspiracy on many normal people that work within Craters, or worked on the S&R. Kind of a shame, since many are good people. I take issue with proclaiming some massive large scale conspiracy. A few people die from bears over the year, and not once has there been a massive cover up when it occurred. It was always labeled for what it was. I find these claims a bit bizarre, considering that they never once suspected any wild animals to be the culprit, but exposure and dehydration.

            I don’t know the first thing about life in Florida, but if a hurricane hit, common sense would tell me not to start blaming crocodiles or sharks if people died.

            I guess, some people just are not honest folk. That’s another thing that I shouldn’t have assumed when trying to be rational about the terrain and conditions these women faced.

            I refuse to carry on this conversation anymore. You folks have a wonderful day. I definitely will not engange any further on the fantastical conspiracies that don’t seem to fit with reality. I am a big outdoorsman, but not a big fan of those that use these fear tactics to further alienate our hobbies from folks that don’t engage in them. The outdoors should be projected as a fun and natural experience, and maybe if it was, there wouldn’t be so many people looking to stop us from fishing and hunting, or even exploring.

          • TRemington

            Wow! You must be like really smart to know everything and to have analyzed me just like that. WOW! Bye!

          • GoldDust

            You mean people like the U.N.? And their open agenda to disarm us, end hunting, end meat consumption, end anything they deem as unsustainable practices on public and private lands. Pretty much being pushed by every environmentalist group in the country. So we should just take a backseat, shut the hell up and enjoy the ride and let them end these enjoyable fun and natural experiences. So your advice is for the hunting/fishing/hiking community to exercise silent acquiescence which gives the United Nations and the U.S. Corporatocracy along with their fool tool controlled opposition environmentalist quacks pushing their bullshit scientific theories rise to consent, our consent to end all use. It’s their own words.

            The Global Biodiversity Assessment
            http://www.freedomadvocates.org/images/pdf/Unsustainables_UN_Global_Bio_Div_Assess_95_Pages.pdf

            Contents
            http://www.freedomadvocates.org/images/pdf/Unsustainables_UN_Global_Bio_Div_Assess_95_TOC.pdf

          • Idaho_Roper

            One can do nothing with those whom choose to remain willfully ignorant. Evidence ignored is no evidence at all to them.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Correction I posted the e-mail I received not Tom R. Tom was waiting for more facts and said he refused to speculate.

            I posted it based on the information I had on the e-mail and who sent it to me.

            Without having all the facts I posted it to see what others might know about it, and was immediately labeled by you.

            If you want to have a discussion that is fine, but taking a superior position by labeling me as a conspiracy theorist not living in reality, but my own is a technique of “labeling” that is used a lot with people who are extra-sensitive regarding “predators” especially wolves as a possibility.

            I told you I was probably wrong after seeing your pictures, and you continued to enjoy labeling, and then in my e-mail box you said I had an agenda. Then you removed the comment because I can’t find it.

            Anybody that doesn’t know about the wolf introduction and fraud and is an Outdoorsman is extremely uninformed in Idaho.

            It might of helped if you offered some questions and interests in how “some” people or the person not the “WHAT” that sent me the e-mail came to those concl usions, but you’re not interested in hearing about other people’s experiences, you just want to dismiss them as being ridiculous.

            Like I said you were awfully touchy and quick to jump on the “marginalization” band-wagon using labels to create cognitive dissonance.

            You’re angry as I’m not letting you get my with Cognitive Dissonance by labeling me.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Conspiracy….yes. Fantastical…..not so much. The real fantasy is ignoring that it exists and ignoring the evidence that proves it.

            While I agree on this particular situation that i is likely an exposure related situation. One doesn’t have to look to far to realize what I stated about wolf related deaths to be true. The pimps tried it with both recent deaths in Alaska.

            Ignore it if you choose, no skin off my hind end. When you find yourself locked out, remember you heard it here first. Adios!

          • Jim Theringer

            I heard people, just like some on this site during the Clinton administration proclaim that we would be locked out from hunting in the monument within a few years after the expansion took effect. And it has yet to happen, nor do I think there will be any plans to remove it as a preserve. There’s a difference between being a conservationist, and one looking to create hostility and division which polarizes people. I’m thinking the people on this site are of the polarization breed.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Jim, Do you understand what the United Nations Bio-Diversity Treaty is? In order to understand wolf introduction you need to comprehend the “agenda” and what it is.

          • Idaho_Roper

            You are wasting bandwidth………on another sheeple. Like GD stated, I hope this dupe is young enough to see this to fruition, it will serve him right.

          • Jim Theringer

            Glad to see you’re the only one truly awake in our society. Playing the game of futures, where only you have the crystal ball is truly a fools game.

          • Idaho_Roper

            For christ sake Jim…..IT IS POSTED ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE!!!
            IT IS TAKING PLACE NOW!

            It doesn’t take a crystal ball to read. Please……remain ignorant, it suits you.

            Later.

            I’m out!

          • wolf moderate

            Fiat currency backed by “the full faith and credit of the US”. why worry about any of this crap. Once the ponzi scheme is finally revealed it won’t matter.

          • GoldDust

            Jim where did the concepts originate? These goals? Ok? So lets say they came out in 1992-3 either president Bush or Clinton, Bush being the signatory of the International Treatise, and Clinton being the President that Executive Ordered that it be implemented nation wide. And they come out and state these uses must end now. Would you have been alarmed and protested this action? Say in 1993 Clinton ended multiple use?

            Now they did not do that, what they are doing is implementing it slowly over time, since 1992-3. So they have twenty year head start on you. It has not been fully implemented, it is in the process. The legal terms are in those documents where these concepts originated. Now lets say, you’re against this happening whether it was over night or over a 30 years time frame, would you feel they conspired to do this against your preferred uses?

            So whats the difference? Ending it in 1993? Or ending say by 2023? They still ended it didn’t they. And they will.

          • Jim Theringer

            Meanwhile, in 2024 the monument is still a preserve with some hunting, some recreation, and some grazing.

            Fact is congress never approved it as a law. It’s just an empty treaty that has no real weight or power.

          • GoldDust

            It is international law. It was executive ordered because the senate refused to sign it. All international law and international treaties are constitutionally the law of the land. Clinton used executive privilege. The powers of a King our infamous Patrick Henry warned us of. It’s law. And at the rate they’re implementing multiple use will be gone by 2023.

          • Jim Theringer

            I expect these goal posts to be moved by 2023 to 2033 when your grand conspiracy never occurs.

            That’s how it always works. Yep, when the monument expansion was declared, I heard it would be two years later and we would be locked out. We are past a decade since the expansion occurred. Looks like those goal posts were moved to 2023. I’m sure you’ll move them again.

          • GoldDust

            Well thank you for giving me credit for authoring these legal documents outlining their plan, which I’m sure if we asked them they’d grumble it is behind schedule. I hope you’re young enough to see this completed. I think these internationalists have endured some set backs over the years due to people exposing them, although they haven’t back off at all.

            This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

            Meaning they knew they were going to be passing more laws and signing Treaties with other Nations, and all of these treaties in international law, shall be the supreme “Law of the Land”, and the Judges are upholding international law and upholding the Constitution when they do. Regardless of congressional approval or presidential approval using executive privilege in implementing international treaties.

            Now what is being done is against the Bill of Rights, which was a five year battle to get the federalists to implement that document which has it’s own preamble. The two documents contradict one another.

            You can thank those conspiratorial anti federalists for those rights you’ve enjoyed which these federalist have fought against since the constitutional convention. Which the International Community lead by despots have also fought to destroy. And are now doing so through international treaties. We’re observing the most cost effective revolution in the history of the world. It’s always cheaper if your opposition surrenders.

            I’m out of here.

          • Jim Theringer

            Got it. You and your friends are the anti-matter, and everyone else is just duped matter in an ever evolving battle of universal chaos. What else is new?

          • GoldDust

            Well let me see, you probably need an attorney to represent you in court? Do you know why? Because in that courtroom you’re considered by the court to be incompetent thus incapable of self representation. So on the other hand you’re competent enough to vote for lawyers playing politicians and you comprehend their every move in the legislative bodies, both state and federal. Hmmm, now when you run up against people here that actually pay attention to these lawyers playing politicos with comprehensive legal terms skills you’re saying we have our heads up our butts but your politicos don’t? Is that what you’re saying here? They have motive and opportunity to screw you because when it comes to legal terminology you are illiterate, what motive do I have beyond sharing what I’ve discovered spending years reading in law books and enjoying dull boring clerks in law libraries? So considering this legal terms dilemma yes, lawyers playing politicos can and have duped the majority of this populace. Even the bible has a warning about this, must have happened quite a bit in history. Lawyers duping people. “Woe unto you lawyers” ,

          • Jim Theringer

            What is your proposal? Pure anarchy? Everyone for themselves? No laws, no rules? Do what you want, when you want and how you want without any regard for others well being?

          • Chandie Bartell

            Agenda 21 is a UN Plan, an unquestioned UN Policy through-out the United States, and is being backed by NGO involvement, the same NGO’s that wrote it, at federal, state, county, and even city local government.

            A soft law policy a guide line, being implemented by thousands of NGO’s through the United Nations infrastructure. True NGO’s are officially sanctioned and certified that fill out applications and pledge to carry out the objectives of the United Nations, Bio-Diversity Treaty.

            It is not a ratified treaty, it’s a soft LAW policy guide-line that is being implemented at all government agencies at all levels from federal down to your local city government. The soft law policies are implemented as regulations but quietly that make it hard to trace, unless people are “educated” about Sustainable Development, the United Nations Bio-Diversity Objectives.

            Agenda 21 – What All AMERICANS Should Know !

            Published on Dec 4, 2013

            Tom DeWeese, the founder and director of the American Policy Center http://americanpolicy.org/

            informs an audience in Albany, NY about the origins of Agenda 21, the central planning strategy that has grown out of the United Nations since 1993 to become soft law in the cities and counties across America to control all facets of the economy for an international redistribution of
            wealth.

            http://beforeitsnews.com/agenda-21/2013/12/agenda-21-what-all-americans-should-know-video-188.html

          • Jim Theringer

            It is not a law.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Wow….I am so relieved, it is not a law. Golly Gee we are saved!!
            Now take the time to look up ICLEI and see how many U.S cities have signed on to this bottom up implementation of your non-law.

            Willfully ignoring her explanation and your comment just expose you as the shallow thinker you seem to be. Willful ignorance is a personal choice, and I have learned long ago that those who choose that are pretty much a waste of time to converse with.

            Keep believing your lack of understanding of the world wide movement going on around you. It is easier not understanding anyway. I think you had the right idea earlier…………moving on.

          • Jim Theringer

            Judging from the comments thrown around here why do you care if the state of Oregon wants to preserve its farmland in the Willemette Valley? Should it just be developed over? Or is that the great duality of the anti-federalist heroes? You want it converted into cities.

            I don’t get half of your logic. In one instance, you rant about cities and development, then you fight against conservation. What side are you really on? I don’t think you even know.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Do you really believe it is about farmland……really?

            Go look a little deeper

          • Jim Theringer

            I dont know if I want to stick my head up my butt, like many on this board.

          • GoldDust

            An executive order may have the force and effect of law if Congress has acquiesced in a long-standing executive practice that is well-known to it. In the case of then president George H.W. Bush signing the International treaty in 1992, and newly elected Bill Clinton using presidential executive order powers to implement the treaty. And with twenty years of environmental law substantiating various aspects of the treaty in every county of this country, it is in fact law. Being implemented into law. And is in fact International Law being implemented globally. As well the American populace has acquiesced, which gives rise to consent, legally becoming law by default.

          • Jim Theringer

            If that were the case there would be no drilling in the Baakan and the UN peace keeping forces would be stationed in the borders keeping corporations out.

            They would also be stationed in many areas of the country.

            Let me guess, your response is that in 2023 that is what WILL happen and anyone that doesn’t buy that is just a big dupe of the conspiracy.

            How easy that logic must be. My guess is you have zero power in life, except the power you feel you wield on this board.

          • GoldDust

            As I already stated, the treaty is not fully implemented. They desire to end fossil fuels addiction, and nuclear technology. Which actually might not be such a bad idea. And I’m glad you pointed out that the large corporations are still running out of control while the little guy business entrepreneur and private property owners are severely persecuted by this treaty. In fact I’m watching an environmental groups discussion right now concerning more regulations upon private property owners.

            Interesting that environmentalists are picking only on producers or only having success against small time producers, — such as ranchers, farmers, miners, and loggers these days, damaging the hunting seasons economy, just see the IDFG regulations reductions in hunting opportunity over the last seven years as evidence.

            The Environmental Movement started because of pollution caused by government and big business — corporations. The Federal government FORCED farmers to use pesticides. Has the government yet cleaned up it’s toxic sites, such as the Hanford Nuclear Plant?

            And the corporations that contribute grants to environmentalists have moved much of their operations to other countries, where they continue to pollute the air and water, Corporations have moved their plants offshore for cheap wages and lax environmental laws.

            It should be obvious that Agenda 21 is about people control. While large corporations are slightly chastised at best.

            As far as your childish remarks concerning my character goes, i have no comment.

          • Jim Theringer

            Unless a person lived all their lives without any contact with another human in some very remote environment practically untouched by others, they are subject to complex laws tailored to create a civilized society. Nothing is ever perfect, and things are always moving one way or another way. Sometimes some areas of the world can manage to stay civil and rather peaceful for centuries. Other times civilizations rise and fall and are in constant civil strife.

            I’d say that this country is not heading like Rwanda, and that many smart people, including lawyers struggle to keep it from heading that way. It’s never perfect, but to state that everyone is subject to a slave economy in the United States is also a misnomer.

            There is plenty of oil extraction, and nuclear activity going on in the states. Plenty of ranching, mining and logging operations. And yes, there should be laws in place on all of these activities so they don’t jeopardize others well being. That’s not always perfect, and there always many views and sidees to every battle. But to proclaim your side the only right one, and everyone else is just a dupe to the conspiracy is very small minded thinking.

            And until UN Peace Keeping forces step into the hillsides of West Virginia, the Gulf of New Mexico and demand that all operations cease in the name of Agenda 21 it is hard to take you seriously. The UN has little authoritative power.

            Obviously, if some corporations must move their operations from one area to an other to bypass this superior hand of international law, then your theory on Agenda 21 has some serious holes.

          • Idaho_Roper

            http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/1968

            “Not only has the federal government been using these treaties and agreements to limit access to, and use of these lands to all Americans, but they also have used the UN designations to limit use of private property OUTSIDE the boundaries of the site.

            That is exactly what happened outside of Yellowstone National Park (a World Heritage Site) when UNESCO delegates were called in by the Park Service in an attempt to stop the development of a gold mine – located
            OUTSIDE the park. The UNESCO delegates declared Yellowstone to be the first “endangered” World Heritage Site and called for a protective buffer zone of 150-MILES IN DIAMETER AROUND THE ENTIRE PARK. The buffer zone would stop development and access to millions of acres of private property.”

          • GoldDust

            And they’re still fighting for this buffer zone.

          • Idaho_Roper

            The buffer zone exists…….They managed to shut down this private mine using it.

            The howlers are just trying to expand on it. As with everything……they have no limits to what they are willing to take and slowly expand on.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Do you really think they are stupid enough to land blue helmets on the ground in the US?

            This is a slow implementation using the corrupt legislative bodies of our own country. There are direct ties from the UN to the US government.

            A small amount of simple research will reveal just how many of our massive and mostly unconstitutional laws were actually written BY the UN. While these laws have deceptive but ‘nice’ sounding names, at their core they are designed to undermine US sovereignty and citizens rights.

            The Endangered Species Act, The Clean Water Act are but two of these laws generated out of the UN that have worked in contradiction to their title and are simply means to destroy private property rights and use of public lands.

            Our constitution supposedly guarantees us the ‘right’ to a trial by a “jury” of our peers should we become the accused in a violation of a law. Both of the above acts deny that right. Should you become the accused, you will be tried and judged by the court, and the court alone, under international law. So much for rights.

            Listen, this thing is huge, complicated and deeply rooted throughout our current government. To be honest, I do not think we will be able to stop it. But to deny it and attempt to condemn those who have researched it only exposes oneself as uninformed.

            Your government no longer works for you Jim.

          • Jim Theringer

            Yes, let’s throw away the clean water act. Idaho is still the worst state in the country for its citizens having access to clean water. About a 1/4 of the people in the state consume contaminated water. It’s the worst in the country, and surely we can do better statewide so that kids and adults aren’t infected with ailments and illness related to drinking contaminants in their water source. Do you realize how many millions in this country benefited from the clean water act? How is that tyranny? Do you wish to enslave people to contaminated and dirty water because you can dump whatever you want into the streams? As long as you are the guy that sits at the top of the glacier melting into the stream that might work, but it stinks to be the guy below you.

            Have you ever spent time in a country where a majority of it’s citizens do not have access to clean water? Why isn’t agenda 21 doing it’s job to bring clean water to more people in this world?

            And seriously, since you have such a great insight into the inner workings of everything, i’m guessing you and the other people on this board, have spent a considerable time in the process of large scale infrastructure and development projects. Can you enlighten me on the large scale infrastructure projects you have you worked on that has either provided some sort of social benefit to humans because you were part of a team in energy development and delivery, public water, transportation, or some other form of infrastructure project that thousands, or maybe millions utilize?

            Being informed, also means having experience that goes beyond surfing a conspiracy website and believing it’s always 100% fact.

          • alrem

            …”While these laws have deceptive but ‘nice’ sounding names, at their core they are designed to undermine US sovereignty and citizens rights.”

            The Social Scientific Dictatorship: The Role of the Social Sciences in the Mechanization of Mankind:

            http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Maschinenmenschen.htm

          • Chandie Bartell

            You sure speculate a lot Jim. You just speculated that the UN Treaty doesn’t exist and has no power, and is part of providing services to humans. It’s the opposite they want to regulate rural people right off of their property, and purchase that property for the government, and move yourself out of the rural areas into Sustainable Smart Growth Cities.

            Also good job speculating that we only get our information about the UN Bio-Diversity Treaty on Sustainable Development off “a” conspiracy website. IR and I have paid tuition and traveled out of state to attend Fred Kelly Grant’s work shops on County Coordination. Not to mention we have a person on our team that used to be an environmentalist for over 30 years, and helped write the Wildlands Map, knows Reed Noss, and quit working for the Sierra Club due to the fact the Treaty, undermines our Sovereignty.

            Agenda 21 is the hot-topic and made the front page of Range Magazine. Go buy a copy of Range Magazine it should be at your local grocery store.

            Also I ordered the Wildland Maps back in 2009 from the man that stopped the Congress from voting on the UN Bio-Diversity Treaty Dr. Michael Coffeeman, at the 11 th hours before Congress voted on it, when it was exposed they voted no.

            Therefore Clinton went around the U.S. Constitution and Congress the “law” of our land to implement it via EO through the back-door.

            *What you are doing is not even “surfing” you are fumbling and badly and you have no information on the subject to even be carrying on a debate or discussion. The fact you are refusing to listen to other people and are desperately labeling them as a “board” and conspiracy mongers with shallow thinking skills reflects on you not us.

            There is no board on TOM R. website. We are visitors that comment, just like yourself.

            Also I lived in Idaho all my life, and my family for generations never heard Idaho had the worst water in the entire country, where did you come up with that?

          • Jim Theringer

            Instead of providing conjecture, if you want me to take you seriously, you might want to provide actual facts built on accompanied data. Not just political theories from political scientists that you want to agree with. You and many here provide nothing but conjecture. Even your videos you supply are just theories and at best conjecture.

            Now, I have seen a few conservation easements, and soil easement programs occur. I have never seen it where the government takes over those lands, YET! Please provide many examples where this is occuring. REAL world examples, not just conjecture that it is GOING to happen, or there are theories that this will occur in the near future. That is not fact.

          • Chandie Bartell

            If you worked with Natural Resources and made a living off the land you would of experienced the “regulations” being implemented by the UN Bio-Diversity objectives. Timber management and ranching are two “jobs” in this state heavily effected by the Wildlands Map, now referred to as Rewilding, and even Gap Analysis.

            This is a tutorial based on Dr. Michael Coffeman’s map, it is now called Gap Analysis.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVTGK1uYqJo

            Transfer of ownership of land is the goal and to destroy private property rights.

            Range Magazine has been covering this topic in a series of articles and is on the cover of this month’s issue. There is plenty of information out there, it’s now your responsibility to seek it if you are in deed sincere about this topic, which I don’t think you are.

            You are sincere about trying to prove that everybody on this site are people of little substance, without knowledge of content of the subjects you know nothing about. We’ve been there and done that. If you really want to learn we’ll be more than happy to help you, if all you want to do is insult people on here, and not put in any effort to research, you are just another troll and waste of time.

          • Jim Theringer

            Once again, do you understand the difference between conjecture and facts? That video is conjecture. I can state that in 2017 that aliens are going to invade the planet and wipe off the human race, and while some might believe me, others are going to be skeptical and demand proof.

            The Rocky Mountain Elk foundation, and Ducks unlimited also purchase easements. The owners hold onto their private property rights in the agreement to not develop the land. Is this also part of the giant con?

            In just my life, i’ve seen a lot of development occur in this country. Many areas that used to be wide open spaces are now gone.

            I agree that we need logging, energy development, grazing, farming, but those are never going away, as long as humans live and consume. In fact, land dedicated to those areas have increased in the previous decades, not decreased. This is just paranoid crazyness. Land restrictions have always been a part of life in just about every civilization, but to state that its happening at this gigantic rate is obscene, because it is not.

            Half of the US is going to be inaccessible? PLEASE. There is no proof of this , and it would never fly, not just in the states, but globally. A video can state it is going to happen, but once again that video provided not one ounce of real data. There maybe a few areas upgraded into wilderness, but the rate of that happening is not very often. I could see if large scale areas were turned into wilderness on a yearly basis, but even in Idaho it hasn’t happened in decades.

          • GoldDust

            Off a conspiracy site? Not true.

            We’re discussing an open agenda laid out in, The U.N. Global Biodiversity Assessment, 1100 pages. The Earth Summit Agenda 21 Sustainable Development. And the Global 2000 Report of the Club of Rome of which I have read cover to cover owning hard copies of each.

            It is interesting that I’ve yet to have a discussion with anyone including environmentalists that have read these United Nations documents, or even own copies of them. Yet they all like you want to argue a world view rather than the legal terms within the documents themselves. Calling hard facts written in legalese conspiracy theories.

            These United Nations environmental ideas are being implemented into all government infrastructures around the world, U.N.I.C.E.P. Thats a lot of power. I.C.L.E.I in every county in this country, thats a lot of power. bi-passed the democratic process and dictated these terms to the people of this country through a treaty, thats a lot of power. The United States government and the fifty states are implementing United Nations Agenda 21 through every governmental agency in existence, thats a lot of power.

            Our political representatives did this implementation on their own. And it is expanding. Seems to me in a free society we might want to have a discussion and vote on something like this. Wow, where did I learn that terrible concept from? Sheesh. I thought we left the dictators in the dust a couple hundred years ago.

          • Idaho_Roper

            You see there is the problem………you still believe it is about water.

            You are willing to sacrifice your rights, that is very obvious. I am not. There is our root difference.

            I would suppose you are of the belief that the government can also provide safety and stop crime. You seem to buy into all the fairytales and ignore the costs.to freedoms and sovereignty. I get the feeling that you would have little issue with the global movement.

            You ask why agenda 21 isn’t bringing more clean water to people around the world. Because Jimmy, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE WATER. A 21 is a program to eventually depopulate this planet. The CWA was written and designed to eliminate sovereignty and personal rights and it has done a splendid job at it.

            As far as my personal experience, much of that I can not and the other I will not divulge. But suffice it to say I have in fact worked on many large scale projects in both the private and government sectors. Does that give more credit that someone whom hasn’t? Not really, most of this stuff is implemented at levels that few have the clearance to be privy too. But, that still doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

            So, here we have a UN Act passed in 1972, was suppose to be a success by 1983, but really did nothing but spawn more bureaucracy and other acts, many of which are also unconstitutional.

            So, I have to ask you Jim…….What is more important to you, individual rights or the government having control in their claimed mission?

            Are you really willing to sacrifice the rights of you and your fellow citizens, and this nation simply because you believe this government and the UN can provide something they have already proven they can’t?

            To answer those questions for you: I do believe in being a good steward, I do believe in oversight but never at the sacrifice of freedom and sovereignty. I understand that this government is hugely inefficient and inept in most of what is does, but most important, it is completely corrupt in it’s intent.

            We are not that far off in finding out which of us is correct. I’ll bet you are going to find yourself disappointed if you have any concern at all about freedom, rights or sovereignty.

            We could go on forever, you showing where it did good, me showing where it crushed someone unjustly. But, does that serve any real purpose? I don’t think so. What I am try to point out is one should look deeper than the surface, beyond the cover of what few good things they may have done and look at the true intent and dangers it holds and ask ourselves…..is this really the best way to go about this?

          • Jim Theringer

            The people are the government. You truly must be a sheltered individual.

            And you are wrong. More people have benefited from the clean water act. It has raised the standard of living in this country. Only people like yourself deny that because you are oblivious to reality and unable to have an ounce of reason in the brain that sits in your thick skull.

          • Idaho_Roper

            There you go Jim, just throw out an unsubstantiated attack. The truth is, it violates civil rights, and without rights Jim, you are a simple slave. Is it really okay with you that it violates peoples civil rights? From your comment I would have to assess that it is indeed fine with you that the government can crush an individual without boundary or recourse.

            The people are the government? You have to be kidding me right? It is obvious you enjoy your life of shallow thinking…….enjoy it Jim.

            Over the last couple of days I have been evaluating you and watching your back and forth, and watching your defense of all things government. So Jim, which government job do you hold? Or are you just another hard core enviro bilking funds from said government? You are definitely tied to it somehow.

            Self serving while supporting the destruction of anothers basic rights. Typical.

          • GoldDust

            These types never seem to reasonably question who has sheltered them leaving their skull compartment regardless of it’s thickness an empty space.

            As it turns out this cat has been here before. Does not live any where near the Craters, probably has only wondered around in them a couple of times, and read about them. And uses a fake email.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Why am I not surprised?

          • wolf moderate

            Please post where you read that Idaho has the most contaminated water out of all of the states.

          • TRemington

            Why the seeming need to demean another person and make personal character insults? Get rid of it.

          • Chandie Bartell

            That isn’t my “verbiage” for the treaty that is language taken directly right out of the Tom DeWeese instructional video about Sustainable Development. Yes, they are using it as law, and the government is enforcing it through regulatory laws, including “punishments” and fines through the court system to force “regulatory control mechanisms” for non-complaint property -owners, businesses, as well as cities, counties and states, including the federal government. Tom DeWeese is the founder and director of the American Policy Center, his tutorial about Agenda 21 is provided in the link I posted above for your convenience. You obviously didn’t watch it.

            You do really need to “write” more than 33 words to demonstrate your understanding of what Agenda 21 Sustainable Development is, and include substance with content next time to leave an impression you are able to comprehend the links I provided. It’s really hard to take you seriously when you are to lazy and arrogant to even listen to the tutorial video I provided, or even take the initiative to conduct your own research.

          • Jim Theringer

            Thanks for showing that you seem to have little ability to think for yourself. You’ve already shown this inability in regards to the two ladies at Craters, and now you seem to do this with many other topics. It seems easy for you to parrot others and be an authority on those words, I’m gathering. You can’t even comprehend the limited power of the UN, i’m going to assume that your knowledge of the system is as equivalent to the parrot of Blackbeards on the Peace of Westphalia.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Good try troll. Fact is I predicted you were trolling on this site as you were the one that jumped on here after providing an explanation and continued with your agenda to prove that everyone on here is inferior to your mental capabilities. Also typical tactic of changing the subject, without proving me wrong by reading the links I provided, that doesn’t make you right, that makes you lazy, ignorant, and uninformed person that is trying to make a point based on 0 facts. Difference between the report of the hikers is that isn’t based on facts yet, and I didn’t have them that is why people speculate. The UN Bio-Diversity Treaty is based on facts and you can do your own research, but you have another agenda don’t you? Speculating on a story without facts is different than having the facts, two totally different issues. If I am wrong I admit it, something you apparently regarding the UN Treaty are incapable of doing.

          • Jim Theringer

            I wouldn’t say i’m superior to anyone. You should think about how you act. You went about acting superior to me from the getgo. I came on here with good intentions, and you attempted to incite me with your vulgarity, your trumped up conspiracies, and attacks that i’m clueless because I don’t agree with your views on the world.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Explain to my how I am inciting you? If I was irrational and and refused to listen to any possibilities regarding the second hiker, that would make me look unreasonable. That wasn’t the “case” I took the information I had received through the e-mail and shared it with people on this cite. Then I took the information you provided and stated that additional information changes the perspective regarding to what “may” have happened and I was most likely incorrect.

            You are “attempting” with great difficulty to continue to portray me in a negative context. Most rational people that come on here that are sincere with getting to the truth that don’t have a per-conceived agenda, would of accepted my explanation, instead of “twisting” the experience to fit into a “labeling category” of your choice based on your “ideologies.”

            When you refused to drop that subject, and label me, and then branch out labeling others on this “site” regarding Agenda 21, my suspicions of you being a “troll” were confirmed.

            Your lack of sincerity regarding the topic of Agenda 21, and prejudices and excuses to process the information we are providing demonstrates you are not serious about the topic, but only to try and “categorize” com- menters on this site into your “narrow” grouping criteria through the use of “labeling” to marginalize.

            Here is another source for Agenda 21: By a left Democrat named Rosa Koire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7T7ulzNG7o

            She also wrote the book: Behind the Green Mask.

          • Jim Theringer

            I have asked some questions, and none of them were answered, instead i’m just labeled as a troll, a dupe, and you continue to incite me with posts like you have done above. You don’t seem to comprehend your ability to incite someone.

            Here are the questions i’m waiting to be answered.

            1. Have any of you been on any long term regional planning projects in regards to infrastructure? That’s a reasonable and honest question. Going to a conference doesn’t count. I’m talking hands to the ground dirty work of seeing a project from beginning to implementation to completion.

            2. If the clean water act is such a travesty and a level of tyranny, why do more Americans have access to clean water today, than they did 20 to 50 years ago? I’d like this answered.

            3. If Agenda 21 is very real, why has more land been developed since the 90’s, than in the history of this country? A real question. Please, i’m waiting for an answer.

            4. Can you please tell me the restrictions in relation to agenda 21 that you have been placed under on a personal basis?

            I’m not sidestepping, i’m just stating that I see some big time holes in your theories. I have asked these questions in a few posts, and none of them were answered.

          • GoldDust

            1. No. yet one does not need to be directly involved in the regional developing infrastructure of any given project in order to comprehend the project from start to completion. For example a professional researcher of historical events might begin with the beginning of the regional development of the 13 colonies political infrastructure and follow those events through the legal treaties and agreements process to the point of those colonies becoming Estates under the Unionization into District States. In order to be aware of several political results, such as debts, land patents, allodial titles, property rights, and feudal fee simple land use.

            2.Why is fluoridated water considered to be clean water? I’d never drink it unless an emergency required it until I could get untainted water free of man made chemicals. Why is the water fluoridated when filtering the water is sufficient?

            3.Agenda 21 is a long term project. The designers of the project state that the desired completion time is 2050-2100 They knew they could not bring such drastic changes these models represent because they are ending property rights, and human rights as we understand them based upon the Bill of Rights. Everything in Agenda 21 is Unbillofrightable. Not to mention Anti Biblical where our real rights as individuals originate. Having read the documents put forth by the various authors I personally want nothing to do with them as it is pure tyrannical in nature, fascist.

            4.Yes, I own several hundred acres and the planning and zoning commission will not issue septic tank permits and fights us tooth and claw over building permits. Five projects on sold lots sit unfinished at the moment. Where in the past permits were never required and then when they implemented the fee for permits they handed them over that day. Now reading the counties I.C.L.E.I. requirements it is easily recognizable as a result of this 1992 treaty. Having read it,

            This is a massive project and to fully comprehend it one must research it in it’s entirety. As well knowledge and understanding of individual rights versus collectivist rights is a must. That is what this fight boils down to, Human rights, under the collective blanket being established under this Global Environmental Treaty there are no human rights.

            You have belittled people here, you have stated you will not read entire comments, and I take that to mean links to sources. I can then assume you will never read the treaty itself. And I also believe you don’t understand your own individual human Rights. Below are the documents you’ve likely never heard of much less tried to comprehend, thus why are you arguing about an issue you’re not fully informed on?

            The U.N. Global Biodiversity Assessment, 1100 pages. The Earth Summit Agenda 21 Sustainable Development. And the Global 2000 Report of the Club of Rome of which I have read cover to cover owning hard copies of each.

            Nothing less than pure tyrannical scientific dictatorship garbage by the would be global governing body of the entire planet and it’s residents.

          • Jim Theringer

            1. Being on a project helps one have better awareness to how the system works.
            2. Reverse osmosis or a deionizer should be on any water tank system in the property. I take it you’re not very scientifically minded.
            3. Ohh it’s now at 2100 when it will be fully implemented? Not 2023? Have the goal posts moved again? We all will probably be dead by then from natural means….or maybe the UN invasion, which is a bit comical to think about.
            4. Over 20,000 building permits are issued in the state about every year. Are you attempting to put too small of a tank on too small of a parcel? Do you like ecoli in your clean water?

          • GoldDust

            The county commissioners those brilliant regional planners where we reside, have recently suffered a loss in court to the tune of five million dollars. All for getting a little tyrannical with one property owners rights. Guess who gets to pay that? The rest of us property owners. Shucks if only they;d understood who they were fucking around with. As in stepping outside of their own rules and playing regional dictator assholes.

            We have tested the soil and water here annually since 1969. No contamination from people squatting and grunting here since 1865 has accumulated in the creek. Although higher levels of aluminum than previously shown are present both in the soil and the water for some strange reason. It’s a real head scratcher.

            A thousand gallon tank meets the requirements. The issue is contamination from previously approved septic systems that doesn’t exist. yet they deny new systems based on probabilities, like it might contaminate the watershed someday so no. Thats not science it’s presumptive buillshit. Especially when upstream and downstream septic systems are in and no contamination is shown. None nada, just no.

            Our property, and all they can say is no. And some lots have existing fully approved septic systems and they refuse the building permits, or are making it a miserable process that takes two or three years. That is how these new rules slow down progress.

          • GoldDust

            Again: the below isn’t science it’s political garbage;

            We’re discussing an open agenda laid out in, The U.N. Global Biodiversity Assessment, 1100 pages. The Earth Summit Agenda 21 Sustainable Development. And the Global 2000 Report of the Club of Rome of which I have read cover to cover owning hard copies of each. It is interesting that I’ve yet to have a discussion with anyone including environmentalists that have read these documents, or even own copies of them. Yet they all like you want to argue a world view rather than the legal terms within the documents themselves. Calling hard facts written in legalese conspiracy theories.

          • Jim Theringer

            You are living proof of living a life of nonsense. Maybe on your death bed, you will realize that you have wasted a good portion of your life.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Well…..one thing I do do is take them at their word. When I can find agendas in action printed on the UN’s own website, I tend to believe them.

            If you look nation wide at what has taken place since the Nixon administration, it is not hard to see how much it has progressed. Most modern so called ‘conservationists’ play into it.

            Anti-use, anti-access defacto wilderness areas are unsustainable and illegal. But who’s to let a few laws get in the way of a UN agenda. Eventually you will be locked out, it really is only a matter of time as explained in their own program.

            You can choose to ignore it, that is your personal choice, but you are not entitled to just create your own facts, There are those whom can accept facts and evidence and those who can’t. But trying to dismiss those who present it is a fools errand.

            All the best to you,

          • Jim Theringer

            The UN really stopped the US from invading Iraq when it voted a resolution opposing action. While the UN does wield some international weight in some key instances especially in relation to brokering nuclear weapons treaties, it is mostly a hand puppet for western society.

            The United States has about 4% of its land contained as wilderness. Of that 4%, about 50% of it is in Alaska. That leaves 96% that is in private lands or leased land for multiple use factors.

            So, 4% is protected as wilderness and you want me to buy into all of these conspiracies, and fall in line and get hysterical and join you and pray for futures of civil strife caused by the invisible hand? It’s easy to present yourself as an authority when it’s all based on a game of futures that may or may not ever happen.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Like I said Jim, remain in willful ignorance if you wish. Ignore ICLEI if you wish. No skin off my ass pal. It is happening right now, all around you, you are being slow boiled and you simply choose to ignore the hot water………..so be it.

            It is quite an interesting and successful implementation, it starts right in your own neighborhood, then town, then state. It is a bottom up movement. But don’t take my word for it, fire up google man……..it’s on their own websites, and the links are easily traceable to your own township.

            Gambling that it won’t ever happen is silly. It has already made enough progress to be considered a real threat. When one finds out just exactly how many US cities have signed on to the ICLEI UN movement that alone should be enough to make you go ‘what?’ But it also take a willingness to accept evidence instead of just brushing it off as it will never happen.

            I am done with you now, you are sinking into troll land and are bringing nothing to the conversation. Either go look it up or don’t, live in denial or don’t. It is your choice and of no concern to me.

            It been a pleasure…….

          • Idaho_Roper

            “Near” is a relative term, 150 miles is not a long distance, what? 2 1/2 hours away or so. I wouldn’t get to worked up about that one. I know I consider 150 miles pretty close and don’t consider it much of a jaunt. Boise is a known landmark, and while Arco has an interesting place in history, it is hardly a known landmark. I can see why someone would put Boise into the discussion considering Idaho is littered with small towns of little recognition and maybe 4 or 5 that are recognizable by the majority of people.

            I have been through craters a few times but have not ventured through it extensively, it is one rugged area for sure. And I suspect as you do that it was the terrain and weather that got these two. Poorly prepared and it cost them.

            The other point is, as far as wolves, it really is only a matter of time until these vermin snatch someone. It is going to happen, and when it does the wolf pimps will make every and all attempts to cover it up, distract, claim bears, place blame on the victim(s) and eventually just go Hillary and say that it doesn’t matter.

          • Chandie Bartell

            The Wolf Introduction is based on a conspiracy that we have proven with a lot of hard work and dedication
            to be true, it’s called Re-wilding.

            I was trying to find the comment you made that I had an “agenda” you must of removed it.

            Your are incorrect the Government has an Agenda. The Environmental Groups have an Agenda. Chandie

            ________________________________________
            Ok, if you believe so, then that is simply your belief system that you built around your view of reality. JIm Theringer
            _________________________________________

            Jim, It’s not my “reality” it IS REALITY, wolf introduction was based on Scientific fraud. Like I said the government put the Canadian wolves into Idaho, as they had an agenda, called Re-wilding.

            It’s not a conspiracy. You can try all day to make it look like I’m a conspiracy theorist, but I’m not as there is information to prove that wolves were introduced illegally and why, when we had wolves.

            Getting back to the woman, you are probably right it was probably the elements. I was reacting to my experiences with all people involved in the wolf introduction and perpetuating the lies about them.

            If I was sent an e-mail where “others” were already concerned, I based my information on those “concerns” with my experiences regarding how this entire wolf introduction has been managed with fraud and misinformation and untruths.

            I also said, after you posted that picture I am probably wrong and that put it into perspective. You are the one that said kept “popping” up with the “conspiracy” comments, and I’m simply not going to let you label me with that.

          • GoldDust

            The Bio-Diversity Treaty is not replacing the constitution which allowed it because the Bio-Diversity Treaty is international law, the constitution itself is international law and it supports all international law, what is being replaced is the restraining order against the constitution which is a separate document with it’s own preamble called the Bill of Rights. Both documents contradict one another and neither document preserves allodial title land owner powers.

            That Constitution only protects the fee simple feudal land titles, those are slaves privileges. Admiralty jurisdiction which was being imposed upon the Colonial land Holders in the 13 colonies. Under this jurisdiction it’s a contractual feudal serf relationship and it was between those colonial land holders and the Crown, who held allodial title while the landholder held equitable title, possession and working the land. This started the war of Independence, after the war ended with the Paris Treaty the lands became the property of the landholders. The debt agreed to in Paris was not being paid so in 1791 George Washington screwed the land holders by making them legally liable for the debt agreed to in paris thus returning them to fee simple feudal land titles, their lands became collateral. allodial title shifted back to the Crown where it still is today. By holding up that constitution you’re advocating that your interest in your land is only an equitable one, and that government is the real title holder of the land thus the Superior owner in your fee simple feudal contract. In other words renters rights, tenant status only. In other words all property in this country both public and private has been hypothecated to the board of governors of the Crown Banks branch here in the states known as the federal reserve, who as these trustees hold legal title to the land. So maybe you you do some research finally and quit this lie of supporting a contract that does not support us. This below is what the constitution did for you;

            “The ultimate ownership of all property{public and private} is in the state; individual so-called “ownership” is only by virtue of Government, i.e., law, amounting to mere user; {Designated Multiple use – fee simple tenant-NO Allodium Title} and use must be in accordance with and subordinate to the necessities of the State.” —Senate Document#43;Senate RESOLUTION NO. 62 {Pg 9, Para 2} April 17, 1933.

          • Bobalee

            Chandie says “I never said I wasn’t speculating”.
            Perhaps you should do less posting of what you and others with whom you communicate speculate. A couple of examples come to mind – the grouse hunter that you speculated was killed by “pro-wolf, anti-hunters” in Okanogan County, WA in early September 2013, and the “transplanted wolves” from Canada that returned “home” from Idaho and Yellowstone which were recaptured by the same trappers for the second year of reintroduction, 1996.
            This even though the first wolves were captured in Alberta and the next group in British Columbia.

          • GoldDust

            Have you confirmed what the father and son who have been charged with this murder were pro for or against yourself or are you just assuming you know? So they owned guns, so do you, so they didn’t want the hunter hunting next to their property, neither do you. So maybe it was a drug deal gone bad. Oh well do you think any anti wolf management advocates out there might do illegal drugs?

          • Bobalee

            The point is that Chandie was speculating. I am not.

          • GoldDust

            My point is you’re still a trouble making harassing asshole. You’re only motive is to discredit Chandie’s character, period.

            There is plenty of speculation going on at the Wildlife News daily, Seems to me you have plenty to be worried about. Whats wrong, isn’t the wildlife news open minded enough for you?

            How does a detective work on a tough crime with few clues left behind? Speculation, and sometimes that speculation leads the detective to evidence. You’ve beaten this horse to death, through the open threads, now here where it is off topic, and you’ve even brought it up at the wild life news, where Chandie was called some vile things for making the speculation in the first place.

            Like a pig by Immer, Loser and worse by Tim Eagan.. Meanwhile you people never want to speak about the lawlessness environmentalists have been involved in, vandalism, arson, even sending bombs out through the mail, Ted K., and Ira Einhorn’s infamous swift move with his dead girl friend in that trunk in the closet. Isn’t interesting that environmentalist groups are on the FBI’s watch list.

            Ecoterrorism: Extremism in the Animal Rights and Environmentalist Movements
            http://archive.adl.org/learn/ext_us/ecoterrorism.html

          • GoldDust

            And as a follow up;

            You started whining about Chandie’s speculation, look where your enlightened minds took the level of intellectual conversation;

            “How much do you want to bet this is a pro-wolf extremist that very likely shot this innocent 60 year old hunter?” The author of this statement then listed several of those people that she thought might be involved.—Barb Rupers

            “losers, parasites, ignorant, “why lower to that level”, as in, engaging in discussion here with us, “needy irresponsible individual who is responsible” for speculating that perhaps an anti wolf management, anti hunter, person might have murdered the grouse hunter. “some pig did try to connect this to pro wolf factions”;

            In the never ending litany of anti-wolf management, pro wolf management both sides say stupid things including YOU and your friends. In fact I’ve just proven that you and your fiendish friends took it a lot lower than Chandie did by merely suspecting a nut case on your side might go a step beyond vandalism and arson.

          • Chandie Bartell

            You don’t speculate? You literally will take threads and posts and do everything in your power to provide misinformation and complete false information to protect wolves.

            You’re real desperate to discredit anybody over-here, and your hypocrisy is so blatant regarding your cherry picking and nic picking over here, and gross disregard and snobbery for the facts Tom R and others post a blind person could see it.

            Oh, and Barb I still like the song Dixie too, might want to run with that one Bob did.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Good try Barb,

            As far as researching facts I am very honest and try to be as thorough as possible as it would not “suit” my work or the effect of it to not be as credible and accurate as possible regarding information on the wolf program.

            You also said I was making up information when I stated that a female wolf that was collared and came from a pack of wolf predating wolves in Canada was false. It isn’t. I got that from official records. It has also been used in County Coordination meetings.

            Regarding the wolf that returned home right now I don’t remember if I got that from the same official record I am pertaining to of the female wolf that came from a pack of “cattle killing” wolves in Canada, with a history of wolf predation, an article, or the “many” books I’ve read on the “subject.”

            But I didn’t get that from one of my personal sources.

            As far as the wolf program goes I try to be as accurate and credible as possible, because the truth is very important to not just me but “others” that we work with on wolf introduction.

            As far as the “speculating” accusal you are making to attack my credibility again, which you work diligently on 24-7, 356; I didn’t have the FACTS for that story, so I was “speculating” like everyone else, when you don’t have the facts you come up with “probabilities” hundreds of people were regarding who or what happened to that man.

            I know a logging family fourth generation that lives in the area, as well as ranching families and it certainly was not out of the “realm” of possibilities regarding the fact Okanagan was a “hot-bed” of militant bullying and threat abuse directed towards the ranch family the McIrvins for having the Wedge Pack killed. Mrs. McIrvin got over 150 death threats, bullying, and harassment on her phone at her residence alone. They had to keep the phone off the hook.

            Considering my experiences with your friends and acquaintances, and what my friends have been through even GD and IR regarding being stalked, threatened, and bullies, receiving phone call threats, you-tube threats, facebook threats, and defamation of character, stalking, and bullying on the internet via facebook, I don’t think it was in the realm of “impossibilities” for others or myself to come up with this “possible” conclusion.

            I spoke to a resident after the men were charged and she told me about them. She said she doesn’t know where they have moved from but they aren’t local, and a lot of other information, which I e-mailed to my friends on here.

            I was wrong. If I’m wrong I will admit it, unlike your record.

            Regarding the hikers: I wouldn’t of speculated on that if I haven’t received the e-mail. After Jim posted the picture of the boulders, it put it into perspective. I will give boots on the ground expertise over anything from a “distance”.

            I doubt if wolves did get the second woman considering the information from that picture, that was before he posted it, so I like many others were speculating. It isn’t a crime to speculate on issues where there is no fact, even the newspapers speculate, the sheriff, thousands of people, what happened to them?

            What the writer of the e-mail was trying conveying is that information is not being provided on the second woman, and the government would lie or cover up an attack by wolves.

            I highly doubt that was the cause of her death.

            So I’m probably wrong.

            Nobody has the facts regarding that case so of course people are going to speculate.

            What makes my side different and me, is that if I’m wrong I will admit it.

            After getting all the information after Jim provided the picture, putting the sequence together and the few facts that are known, I believe it was probably exertion and exhaustion and the elements. I didn’t have all the facts, neither does anybody else, and I was going by the e-mail as well as the cover-up of negative effects by wolves for over 18 years.

            The record of false information, deceit and uncredible information regarding the wolf introduction is well documented, and their agenda and motives are well documented. Their cover-up is well-documented.

          • Bobalee

            I do not recall any discourse involving a collared female wolf from Canada. Actually, I wouldn’t be at all surprised that some wolves north of Washington had cattle in their prey base and that they could easily move south. Perhaps on of the other commenters you follow.

            http://www.cattlemen.bc.ca/docs/mitigating%20cattle%20losses%20a%20field%20guide%20for%20ranchers_smaller%20file.pdf

          • Chandie Bartell

            You questioned a comment I made about a female wolf that was collared and came from a cattle predating pack in Canada, and was transplanted down here. She had to be euthanized after getting several reprieves for chronic depredation, and was transplanted, but nothing could be done. You can’t rehabilitate wild wolves to not eat cattle.

            I didn’t get that information from a commenter, I got it digging through records. Right now I can’t retrieve it as that information was sent to the Farmer’s Bureau, as well as other groups working on similar issues. Others have the information.

  • GoldDust

    https://contest.thesca.org/got-dirt/lava-deer-buck-and-doe
    “Snuck up on couple mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) on Sunset Ridge at Craters of the Moon National Monument and Preserve in Idaho. They often hang out in stands of limber pine (Pinus flexilis) during the day and are rarely seen. Under cover of night though, they are often noticed sneaking around the headquarters.”

  • kristilloyd

    There’s hunting at a national monument? The pines don’t grow in the lava. Plants live from spring runoff. The migratory routes aren’t through the lava, but on the outer fringes of the desert. Maybe those women were shot by hunters. That’s another good conspiracy, go ahead and run with that one if you’d like.

    • GoldDust

      Maybe you’d better take a walk there sometime. No hunting in the Monument, only around it. Elk and Deer cross the lava. The lava is over sixty miles across west to east. Sixty miles to the west the deer that migrate south off the Smoky Mountains cross miles and miles of lava.

      I speculate that one of the ladies became sick, the other over exerted herself busting tail for the car, didn’t make it. At the time it was raining, snowing, and likely windy with fog.

      “Limber pine is the dominant tree at the higher elevations above 5,500 feet where it grows in scattered open stands on both lava flows and cinder fields”

    • wolf moderate

      I stayed at the campground in the park. Saw 2 deer and a rattle snake.

      • GoldDust

        I never would have thought the Craters area from Carey-Arco southeast to Idaho Falls could be so fascinating a place 25 years ago. A friend grew up in the area ranching and he took me hunting out there for the first time. I was thinking to myself it was a wasted opening day for deer. Then I seen canyon out there in that wasteland you’d never know was there unless you fell into it. That day we observed a small herd of elk out there, I was floored, I’d never have believed it. I kid you not my friend, Those to this day are the biggest two bull elk I’ve ever seen. Both bulls would make the book. A couple years later that barren lifeless wasteland produced a 37″ 6×6 Mule Deer, it’s hanging here on the wall. I’ve seen so many rock chucks out there it looked like the ground was moving. I’ve see that place out there buried under five feet of snow as well. And my friend, God rest his soul, he showed me a rattle snake den.

        • Jim Theringer

          These women were in the Blue Dragon Flow area, which is an extensive mass of lava. Although, it’s only about 3 miles wide at it’s thickest spot. Most of the wildlife skirt the edges of the flows.

        • Chandie Bartell

          You saw elk in that area where the boulders look like that Jim posted? Reason I ask is that after I saw that picture it does look real rough, but I would also say not too rough for wolves or cougars, but elk with hooves in my opinion.

          I could see Mountain Goats, Big Horns, mountain lion and wolves covering that terrain, but not so much as elk, even though they have been forced into rough steep terrain compared to before.

          • Jim Theringer

            Sorry. No mountain goats or big horns in this area. There’s a very small population of bighorns in the white Knobs and in the Lost River Range, but not out here. Elk do migrate through this area and winter out near the Buttes to the east. There are some cougars in the desert that prey on the big Mule Deer, Rabbit and Antelope populations. But, i’ve never seen any signs of cougar in the Craters lava flows or boundaries, or know of any reports of them. To the east of the big flow that extends out to Arco, the terrains starts to become less rough, and more suitable for all sorts of game. But, in the flows, there’s not much in it but the smallest mammals. The floor of the lava fields, which are very black can reach up to 120 degrees during the heat of the Summer. Only fools trek the desert during that time of year. Wolves occasionally are spotted on the eastern areas of the Craters desert, but it’s not very frequent. Most wolf populations are in the mountains to the North.

          • Chandie Bartell

            I didn’t think there were Mountain Goats or Big Horns in that area, but they would be able to handle crossing those boulder lava flows.

            Wolves are everywhere, you need to look at a wolf pack map last one we got is 2008.

            I can see how the lava boulders would not be where wolves would want to hang out as they are lazy, and prefer logging roads, roads, game trails, and love our open fields and pastures. They live in the mountains, and the towns, and the in-betweens.

            They didn’t stay in the Wilderness, that was another lie from the Agencies and Groups that introduced them.

          • Bobalee

            Chandie
            I have been following this issue since the early 1990s and never heard anything about wolves would stay in the wilderness areas. From whence comes your information?

          • GoldDust

            I’ve heard this myth myself, that wolves would stay in wilderness. National Forests, actual Wilderness areas. And BLM lands where several elk herds USED to winter. Wolves do not belong in our back yards, front yards anymore than cougars belong on our roof tops or in our barns rafters, anymore than bears belong in our dumpsters or kitchens. I suggest that this fairy tale was started by misinformed anti wolf management emotional lunatics on your side of this issue because no rancher farmer nor hunter would be so fken dumb as to start such a rumor as that one. Maybe you should head back on over to Wild Lies and do some self inflicted damage control. You fools have enough people in your own ranks that need policing and correcting, since you’re so bent in playing internet cop you might go home and get to it.

          • Idaho_Roper

            What? You have never seen the fictions map produced by the wolf pimps of the projected areas wolves would inhabit?

            You obviously haven’t been paying very close attention.

            It was another grand lie, just one of many.

            So, to answer your question, the information came from the USFWS.

          • TRemington

            I think you’ll find that mythology tucked neatly away in the Environmental Impact Statement. It is spoke of indirectly, as in wolves will not come out into the public unless they have no prey to eat and there was no fear of that because their fake studies showed there was sooooo much prey base, it would never happen.

            I also believe direct reference to this myth was made in several of the letters included in the EIS. It’s been some time since I have read the EIS, so I can’t and will not spend the time to go find.

          • GoldDust

            In Wolfer Carter claimed we have plenty of elk to support reintroducing wolves. It did take some years since 1995 before the wolf started in on agricultural lands, rural neighborhoods, and began hanging out in Towns and cities. Obviously there were not enough elk. And still are not enough elk. Standard gear for the wood cutter is now a pistol on the belt.

          • Idaho_Roper

            You mean the fraudulent numbers they created to claim we had enough elk. They should have been jailed for that manufactured lie. Those numbers they presented were so asinine I can’t believe anyone bought it.

            And that was only to claim we could support 150 wolves, not ten fold that number.

            And calling Carter a wolfer is an insult to the title…..Carter couldn’t find a wolf if it weren’t wearing a collar to tell him where it was. That is the reason they had to hire the actual trapping out.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Don’t forget that right after they transplanted wolves in Corn Creek that with in a few days there were wolves killing livestock in Salmon, Idaho. Also in Cat’s book, right after the wolves were transplanted into YNP, (which the experts claimed would never leave the park but we all knew that was ridiculous), there were cattle and sheep depredations. So the wolves were killing livestock right from the beginning, and everybody predicted this but the “paid experts” who were in charge of writing the EIS and managing the program.

            The rural people and property owners, the citizens were put under siege, and couldn’t even protect their pets or livestock, 3 “confirmed” strikes before a wolf would be killed for chronic depredation.

          • GoldDust

            And you’re telling this to me because?

            Everybody knows this stuff. Even those denying it.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Tim Kaminski also wrote about it, and he wrote an article where he states everything we predicted about wolf introduction was wrong, wrong, wrong, except that wolves would eat some pets.

            Tim Kaminski as others thought wolves would not predate on livestock, and would stay in the wilderness areas away from people as they had plenty of ungulates to eat.

            The group of wolves dropped off in the Wilderness of Idaho, they had a wolf killing livestock in Salmon within days.

            They also said the wolves would stay in Yellowstone National Park, and wouldn’t leave the park.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Kaminski got his degree at the same place as Mowat. Fairytale University.

          • Idaho_Roper

            Yes…..it was one of Ed Bangs’ big lies. She knows where it came from and is just up to her typical games in questioning it.

          • Chandie Bartell

            Ed Bangs also reiterated this information at the scoping meetings prior to wolf introduction. It is a well known substantiated fact that the USFWS claimed this under Ed Bangs. Dr. Charles Kay also addressed the lies about what the Government Doesn’t Want You To Know About Wolf Introduction, creating an entire list of “claims” being made by the EIS and the wolf introduction program in 1993 and Bangs tried to have him fired from the University he taught at in Utah.

            SWW also has Dr. Charles Kay on film discussing the “wolves will stay in the wilderness” areas at a meeting in Billings, MT. That segment is in the documentary, Yellowstone is Dead.

  • kristilloyd

    Dr. badassberry Berry….the Tea Party at its finest….http://mtcowgirl.com/tag/ed-berry/

    • Chandie Bartell

      Your Post is out-dated it’s 2013 almost 2014, and that post is 2011 ancient history.

  • GoldDust

    Limber Pine at Craters of the Moon

    http://www.nps.gov/crmo/naturescience/limber-pine.htm

  • Dean Vosler

    I suggest that these people that think wolves are such lovable animals just look to the past attacks and deaths caused by wolf half breeds. I know Michigan outlawed breeding wolves to dogs, but the DNR want more wolves in the Lower Peninsula. Too much Disney and “AVATAR” fantasy governs “wild life management”. By the way, this occurs because of what these biologists are taught in the schools in Michigan, that teach children from elementary school on that Michigan has a polluted environment and we must save all animals. Sure we do.